Yes, Kirk rolled the Golf
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From: Greensboro, NC, USA
Yes, Kirk rolled the Golf
It was buried in another thread so some folks missed the sad news that I tumbled Pablo on the first stage of the second day, at Rally Tennessee.
No - there are no "after" pictures but suffice to say that we spent a day last weekend cutting out the crushed windshield, vacuuming out the busted glass and dirt, pulling off obviously scrapped pieces (hood, DS front fender), and generally assessing the damage.
We were already considering what we were going to do with a new shell that I got for a song - http://it2.evaluand.com/gti/build4.php - partially because we knew that the cage was a compromise, because it went in when we were still running SSC with the interior. As soon as I got out of the wreck (went over once, landed on his wheels) I knew that we were going to be pushing up the schedule for caging process for the new box. If you are building a cage, remember what I already knew: A tight fit doesn't protect the driver better, it preserves the SHELL better.
Pablo is essentially undamaged from the door handles downward. We COULD clip the roof or maybe even yank it straight but it would be a matter of putting money back into a place where it would just get spent again, next time we took a big hit.
The new cage is going to be an evolution of the current design - pushing the mounting plate area rule a little further, using smaller tube (1.5" is legal at ITB weight, where we had to use 1.75 with the piggy SS specs), and taking advantage of the new, smart rule that says you can use thinner wall tubing for non-required cage elements like roof triangulation.
We had talked about doing the new shell up as a "pure" IT car, without compromises but since I'll still have only one car, it's going to be a multipurpose tool again. It's an older tub, so it will be OBDI and subject to less-stringent NC inspection rules, so we'll have more latitude on some things. As of now, a primary goal for the 2006 season will be to see how well one might finish at the ARRC with a street-licensed car.
Some safety hints, coming out of my experience...
** A winged seat (a la my Recaro SPG) is the hot ticket in a rollover. I felt my noggin bouncing between the bolsters as we went over, gentle as you can imagine. I could also literally feel the seat flexing on the moung (FIA spec, no back brace) softening the ride. My codriver had a non-winged Recaro (Pole Position) and knocked her helmet on MY wing, complaining about a stiff neck afterward.
** If your window net fits between the cage and the roof or pillars, think about moving it. A tab on her side got squashed and, while it didn't slow her down getting out, it struck me that it could have.
** Isaac? This wasn't the kind of crash that an H&N system really saves one from but I can tell you, unequivocally, that pulling those pins didn't slow me down even a full second - even under duress. I practice pulling them quickly EVERY TIME I take them off, so it was second nature. I have the "enduro-spec" unit, with both pull-pins on one lanyard, so it's a yank-and-go deal.
** Finally, I was VERY glad that I had a full-face helmet on - with the visor DOWN - when all of those shards of windshield hit me in the face. If you are still doing the open face thing, come by the shop, I'll throw a handfull of the stuff that we sucked out of the floors in your face, and you tell me how it feels.
All things considered, it was a really gentle ride. I've been WAY more roughed up on a coaster at Carowinds. Amy (codriver) bruised her lower leg on the fire extinguisher, in addition to her head knock, but she was seen telling stories at the post-race beer bash, seemingly none the worse for wear. I didn't get a scratch.
K
No - there are no "after" pictures but suffice to say that we spent a day last weekend cutting out the crushed windshield, vacuuming out the busted glass and dirt, pulling off obviously scrapped pieces (hood, DS front fender), and generally assessing the damage.
We were already considering what we were going to do with a new shell that I got for a song - http://it2.evaluand.com/gti/build4.php - partially because we knew that the cage was a compromise, because it went in when we were still running SSC with the interior. As soon as I got out of the wreck (went over once, landed on his wheels) I knew that we were going to be pushing up the schedule for caging process for the new box. If you are building a cage, remember what I already knew: A tight fit doesn't protect the driver better, it preserves the SHELL better.
Pablo is essentially undamaged from the door handles downward. We COULD clip the roof or maybe even yank it straight but it would be a matter of putting money back into a place where it would just get spent again, next time we took a big hit.
The new cage is going to be an evolution of the current design - pushing the mounting plate area rule a little further, using smaller tube (1.5" is legal at ITB weight, where we had to use 1.75 with the piggy SS specs), and taking advantage of the new, smart rule that says you can use thinner wall tubing for non-required cage elements like roof triangulation.
We had talked about doing the new shell up as a "pure" IT car, without compromises but since I'll still have only one car, it's going to be a multipurpose tool again. It's an older tub, so it will be OBDI and subject to less-stringent NC inspection rules, so we'll have more latitude on some things. As of now, a primary goal for the 2006 season will be to see how well one might finish at the ARRC with a street-licensed car.
Some safety hints, coming out of my experience...
** A winged seat (a la my Recaro SPG) is the hot ticket in a rollover. I felt my noggin bouncing between the bolsters as we went over, gentle as you can imagine. I could also literally feel the seat flexing on the moung (FIA spec, no back brace) softening the ride. My codriver had a non-winged Recaro (Pole Position) and knocked her helmet on MY wing, complaining about a stiff neck afterward.
** If your window net fits between the cage and the roof or pillars, think about moving it. A tab on her side got squashed and, while it didn't slow her down getting out, it struck me that it could have.
** Isaac? This wasn't the kind of crash that an H&N system really saves one from but I can tell you, unequivocally, that pulling those pins didn't slow me down even a full second - even under duress. I practice pulling them quickly EVERY TIME I take them off, so it was second nature. I have the "enduro-spec" unit, with both pull-pins on one lanyard, so it's a yank-and-go deal.
** Finally, I was VERY glad that I had a full-face helmet on - with the visor DOWN - when all of those shards of windshield hit me in the face. If you are still doing the open face thing, come by the shop, I'll throw a handfull of the stuff that we sucked out of the floors in your face, and you tell me how it feels.
All things considered, it was a really gentle ride. I've been WAY more roughed up on a coaster at Carowinds. Amy (codriver) bruised her lower leg on the fire extinguisher, in addition to her head knock, but she was seen telling stories at the post-race beer bash, seemingly none the worse for wear. I didn't get a scratch.
K
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From: One by one, the penguins steal my sanity.
Re: Yes, Kirk rolled the Golf (Knestis)
Sorry to hear that. Will Pablo eventually be "restored" as a back-up, or sold/scrapped, with Pablo v.2 being the one and only Kirkmobile?
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From: Greensboro, NC, USA
Re: Yes, Kirk rolled the Golf (Knestis)
Photos copyright Nick Lehner
http://www.maxpowered.com/imag...essee/
BTW, we were sitting 3rd in class (of 7) and 7th OA (of 14) after day one. Bummer.
K
http://www.maxpowered.com/imag...essee/
BTW, we were sitting 3rd in class (of 7) and 7th OA (of 14) after day one. Bummer.
K
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From: Pacific Northwest, USA
Re: Yes, Kirk rolled the Golf (Knestis)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knestis »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Amy (codriver) bruised her lower leg on the fire extinguisher, in addition to her head knock, but she was seen telling stories at the post-race beer bash, seemingly none the worse for wear. I didn't get a scratch.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Glad to hear
Glad to hear
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From: Springfield, Va, USA
Re: Yes, Kirk rolled the Golf (Knestis)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knestis »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Amy (codriver) bruised her lower leg on the fire extinguisher...</TD></TR></TABLE>
The chrome bling one mounted on the A-pillar?
Glad you're all alright. Get back on that horse.
The chrome bling one mounted on the A-pillar?
Glad you're all alright. Get back on that horse.
Joined: Jun 2002
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From: Middlesex, NJ, USA
Re: Yes, Kirk rolled the Golf (Knestis)
Sorry to hear about the crash. Good luck with the new car, it sounds like you already had a great plan in place and now have the motivation to execute it!
Most importantly, than you SO much for the detailed analysis of how your safety gear did (or didn't) work in the roll. That kind of specific information is scarce on the Web. Thanks again!
Most importantly, than you SO much for the detailed analysis of how your safety gear did (or didn't) work in the roll. That kind of specific information is scarce on the Web. Thanks again!
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From: High Point, NC, USA
Re: Yes, Kirk rolled the Golf (Knestis)
Kirk-
Not sure if you know it or not but after this year NC is doing away with tailpipe testing at inspection time. Cars older than 1996 will only have to do a safety inspection. OBD2 cars will still get hooked up but no more sniffer tests. Don't know if that helps with your plans but I thought it might.
Not sure if you know it or not but after this year NC is doing away with tailpipe testing at inspection time. Cars older than 1996 will only have to do a safety inspection. OBD2 cars will still get hooked up but no more sniffer tests. Don't know if that helps with your plans but I thought it might.
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From: Greensboro, NC, USA
Re: Yes, Kirk rolled the Golf (STS_Underdog)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by STS_Underdog »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Not sure if you know it or not but after this year NC is doing away with tailpipe testing at inspection time. Cars older than 1996 will only have to do a safety inspection. ...</TD></TR></TABLE>
Correct-o-mundo. The new version will be an OBDI engine, since the VIN will reflect that Pablo has gotten two years older - from a 1996 b'day to 1994. Bildon Motorsport has also cracked the code for that generation of Motronic engine management, so we'll have complete control over mapping. We're also stepping up and building the engine with the full IT gig. The earlier engines also have a forged crank and piston bottom oil squirters so they are thought to be a little tougher. Not like it has been a problem to date.
We had a strategy pow-wow this evening and brought the new shell into the shop. The goal is to have it stripped and ready for a trip to Competition Cages by the end of this coming weekend.
K
Correct-o-mundo. The new version will be an OBDI engine, since the VIN will reflect that Pablo has gotten two years older - from a 1996 b'day to 1994. Bildon Motorsport has also cracked the code for that generation of Motronic engine management, so we'll have complete control over mapping. We're also stepping up and building the engine with the full IT gig. The earlier engines also have a forged crank and piston bottom oil squirters so they are thought to be a little tougher. Not like it has been a problem to date.
We had a strategy pow-wow this evening and brought the new shell into the shop. The goal is to have it stripped and ready for a trip to Competition Cages by the end of this coming weekend.
K
Joined: Oct 2004
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Re: Yes, Kirk rolled the Golf (Knestis)
Sorry to hear about your car.
I have a question about pictures. Last year there was a really bad Club Rally wreck at New York. The driver/co-driver were injured, but eventually okay. The driver (owner) said in a forum (specialstage??) that he wasn't allowed to post pics.
Are there some sort of rules against publishing accident photos at SCCA-sanctioned events?
Don't mean to be a rubber-necker; just thought it was odd that he'd refuse to post shots.
Good luck.
I have a question about pictures. Last year there was a really bad Club Rally wreck at New York. The driver/co-driver were injured, but eventually okay. The driver (owner) said in a forum (specialstage??) that he wasn't allowed to post pics.
Are there some sort of rules against publishing accident photos at SCCA-sanctioned events?
Don't mean to be a rubber-necker; just thought it was odd that he'd refuse to post shots.
Good luck.
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From: Plotting My Revenge
Re: Yes, Kirk rolled the Golf (igoita63)
Did you take any pictures of the car after your crash Ivan.
I'm thinking it might be yet another illustration of the importance of a good cage, if you're willing to post the shots.
I'm thinking it might be yet another illustration of the importance of a good cage, if you're willing to post the shots.
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From: Greensboro, NC, USA
Re: Yes, Kirk rolled the Golf (gpteitz)
I've never heard of anyone being "not allowed" to publish pics of a crashed rally car. The only requirement that I know of, started by SCCA and carried over I believe to Rally America and NASA in their programs, is that EVERY incident where a car is damaged enough to not continue requires submission of an incident report.
We (the rally community, in which I feel comfortable including myself despite current developments) ran into problems in the late '80s when the insurers' data suggested that EVERY recorded crash in rallying resulted in a serious injury or fatality. This arose because the only time anyone documented what had happened was when someone was hurt. To provide a more realistic picture, we were required to document incidents - even to the degree of being refused future entry if we didn't turn in our forms.
PERSONALLY, I covered up the damaged Pablo because (a) I didn't want to contribute to potential public perception in a small town in TN that rallying is dangerous, or is about crashing; (b) I didn't want a bunch of people vulturing around when I was already sad about my Big White Frog (Giles, 2005) getting squished, and I was trying to maintain a positive front; (c) I did NOT want family, co-workers, and friends (Mom in Seattle) who don't really know racing to get a false impression of the danger involved in my game from the visual impact of glass blown all to hell; and finally (d) I just wanted the visual record to remember Pablo in a more positive way.
This is a car with a 129K-mile original engine and stock gearbox, with which we traded stage times with a purpose-built SVT Focus with a 6-speed dog 'box. A street legal, licensed car that qualified for the SIC and was in 12th of 70+ ITB cars in SARRC points. A 100whp car that finished ahead of more cars than it was behind in a couple significan enduros. It's about respect for all of his hard work.
K
We (the rally community, in which I feel comfortable including myself despite current developments) ran into problems in the late '80s when the insurers' data suggested that EVERY recorded crash in rallying resulted in a serious injury or fatality. This arose because the only time anyone documented what had happened was when someone was hurt. To provide a more realistic picture, we were required to document incidents - even to the degree of being refused future entry if we didn't turn in our forms.
PERSONALLY, I covered up the damaged Pablo because (a) I didn't want to contribute to potential public perception in a small town in TN that rallying is dangerous, or is about crashing; (b) I didn't want a bunch of people vulturing around when I was already sad about my Big White Frog (Giles, 2005) getting squished, and I was trying to maintain a positive front; (c) I did NOT want family, co-workers, and friends (Mom in Seattle) who don't really know racing to get a false impression of the danger involved in my game from the visual impact of glass blown all to hell; and finally (d) I just wanted the visual record to remember Pablo in a more positive way.
This is a car with a 129K-mile original engine and stock gearbox, with which we traded stage times with a purpose-built SVT Focus with a 6-speed dog 'box. A street legal, licensed car that qualified for the SIC and was in 12th of 70+ ITB cars in SARRC points. A 100whp car that finished ahead of more cars than it was behind in a couple significan enduros. It's about respect for all of his hard work.
K
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From: Charlotte, NC, USA
Re: Yes, Kirk rolled the Golf (Catch 22)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Did you take any pictures of the car after your crash Ivan.
I'm thinking it might be yet another illustration of the importance of a good cage, if you're willing to post the shots.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Here are the ones from my car - I wish I had a few more from 10,000' but if you look at the details, there be some big deformations.
http://www.ipsolve.com/racestuff/v1/excar.asp
Glad you Ok Kirkimus - time to build a mo-betta one
I'm thinking it might be yet another illustration of the importance of a good cage, if you're willing to post the shots.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Here are the ones from my car - I wish I had a few more from 10,000' but if you look at the details, there be some big deformations.
http://www.ipsolve.com/racestuff/v1/excar.asp
Glad you Ok Kirkimus - time to build a mo-betta one
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From: Plotting My Revenge
Re: Yes, Kirk rolled the Golf (phat-S)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by phat-S »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Here are the ones from my car - I wish I had a few more from 10,000' but if you look at the details, there be some big deformations.
http://www.ipsolve.com/racestuff/v1/excar.asp
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yeah. Try that with a 6 point bolt-in cage.
Ivans looked just about as bad. Not a single straight panel on the car, but the entire area within the cage was just fine. The broken crank pulley was slightly surreal.
Where you at Slagg...
Here are the ones from my car - I wish I had a few more from 10,000' but if you look at the details, there be some big deformations.
http://www.ipsolve.com/racestuff/v1/excar.asp
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yeah. Try that with a 6 point bolt-in cage.
Ivans looked just about as bad. Not a single straight panel on the car, but the entire area within the cage was just fine. The broken crank pulley was slightly surreal.
Where you at Slagg...
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From: Browns Summit, NC, USA
Re: Yes, Kirk rolled the Golf (Catch 22)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Where you at Slagg...</TD></TR></TABLE>
please don't remind me....
thus why i am not full throttle everywhere....t12-t1 ra....down the esse's....the kink at cmp, the kink at beaver, down the shOOt at summit...the list goes on and on....
IT IS IN THE BACK OF MY HEAD!!!
i think about it at the kink on the back straight at ra....
yes i know....and yes a weld in is in the works for next year....i hope....just gotta find someone to buy my left nut....
Where you at Slagg...</TD></TR></TABLE>
please don't remind me....
thus why i am not full throttle everywhere....t12-t1 ra....down the esse's....the kink at cmp, the kink at beaver, down the shOOt at summit...the list goes on and on....
IT IS IN THE BACK OF MY HEAD!!!
i think about it at the kink on the back straight at ra....
yes i know....and yes a weld in is in the works for next year....i hope....just gotta find someone to buy my left nut....
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From: RIP Craig Jones
Re: Yes, Kirk rolled the Golf (chad)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chad »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
thus why i am not full throttle everywhere....t12-t1 ra....down the esse's....the kink at cmp, the kink at beaver, down the shOOt at summit...the list goes on and on....</TD></TR></TABLE>
You're still going faster than an ITA car.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chad »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">just gotta find someone to buy my left nut....</TD></TR></TABLE>
Sell K20, put D16 in your hatch
thus why i am not full throttle everywhere....t12-t1 ra....down the esse's....the kink at cmp, the kink at beaver, down the shOOt at summit...the list goes on and on....</TD></TR></TABLE>
You're still going faster than an ITA car.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chad »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">just gotta find someone to buy my left nut....</TD></TR></TABLE>
Sell K20, put D16 in your hatch
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From: Charleston, SC
Re: Yes, Kirk rolled the Golf (.RJ)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chad »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
a weld in is in the works for next year....just gotta find someone to buy my left nut....</TD></TR></TABLE>
Or you can just pay me to do it seeing as though I am an I-CAR certified welder and legal to make race cages
a weld in is in the works for next year....just gotta find someone to buy my left nut....</TD></TR></TABLE>
Or you can just pay me to do it seeing as though I am an I-CAR certified welder and legal to make race cages
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From: Roswell, Georgia, United States
Re: Yes, Kirk rolled the Golf (Catch 22)
Scott,
I have pictures of the car at OPM before we disassemble it. All I need free space to post the images. Your right a good cage is absolutely critical.
Ivan
I have pictures of the car at OPM before we disassemble it. All I need free space to post the images. Your right a good cage is absolutely critical.
Ivan
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From: RIP Craig Jones
Re: Yes, Kirk rolled the Golf (igoita63)
I can get them hosted - email them to me - rpjenkins@gmail.com