For those not familar with them this is what a legends car looks like

Dwarfs do not have the fenders and I believe they have a fiberglass shell. Anyways.

Being in Texas I have access to many circle dirt tracks and have been looking at these cars to keep me entertained on the weekends. Costs seem inexpensive seeing as how I've run accross turn key cars from 2k-5k. Tires are apparently cheap and last a good 30+ races(anyone know how much these are?). Engines should last a while since theyre mainly kept stock. Entry fee's I have no clue about. Unfortunately some of the local tracks have slowed down their events for winter so I cant really go watch and ask around. Just wondering if anyone has had experience with these cars or dirt racing in general. Thanks.

 

You obviously have us confused with someone more intelligent.

Please don't bring this kind of stuff around here anymore.

You are welcome of course to join in bitching and whining about stupidly racing stupid Honda/Acura's.

AND, if you want to buy a Type-R and complain that you can't afford to operate it competitively then "Welcome Brother Retard!"

Scott, who thinks dwarf cars are like karts...only more smarter...

 

they run with NASA in Nor-Cal.


the cars are fast in a stright line, but you have to use a BFG street tire, that has zero grip, so they are always dancing in the corners. I have talked to a few drivers and they say a set of tires will last you 2 years or so.

 

http://www.600racing.com/

Main office is in Harrisburg (~7 miles from the house).

Looks like a lod of fun to me... it just sucks when you see a large 'hauler' unload 2 or 3 of them with a crew of 3 or 4 adults for a young "Wallace, LaJoie, Blaney" driver. Nice to have parents in the business... but daym it takes the fun out of it. IMO


Tyres: 205/13R60 BF Goodrich Comp TA HR4

 

Yeah, but they are a $%&#ing pain in the *** to share the track with. I don't like to make generalizations, but all Legends drivers suck ***. At a bare minimum the cars should all be redesigned with 4 times the mirror surface area that they currently have. Preferably, all Legends drivers should be shot.

 

People race these on non-ovals?

signed,
Shocked in the South

 

The combination of hard tires and not being able to tune your rear suspension due to rules does make the car a little goofy on the turns which to me looks like fun and nothing to complain about. Yea, tires dont seem to be a big issue, not finding an exact price, but 205/16s are around 75$ so i cant imagine a 13 being insane.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MattP &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">People race these on non-ovals?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Up here in NASA OH/IN the grid/tech guy has one of these set up to turn right and left. He's been out in Group 4/Time Trials with me before; I think he also intends to race it in small bore. It seems to me the car is putting down times in the ITB-ITC region.

I can see where outward visibility might be a problem in one of these. As mentioned, I've been out on the track with a Legend as well as open wheel and SRF cars - basically I don't like being in a group with small cars such as this as they can be harder to spot and they take a totally different line (probably because of aforementioned tire issues).

For comparison, picture taken on Beaverun front straight over Labor Day:


- Mark

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Markus &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Up here in NASA OH/IN the grid/tech guy has one of these set up to turn right and left. He's been out in Group 4/Time Trials with me before; I think he also intends to race it in small bore. It seems to me the car is putting down times in the ITB-ITC region.

I can see where outward visibility might be a problem in one of these. As mentioned, I've been out on the track with a Legend as well as open wheel and SRF cars - basically I don't like being in a group with small cars such as this as they can be harder to spot and they take a totally different line (probably because of aforementioned tire issues).

For comparison, picture taken on Beaverun front straight over Labor Day:


- Mark</TD></TR></TABLE>

Jeff Davidson is the driver's name, and he actually did the comp. school at BeaveRun on Saturday and ran in the small bore race on Sunday.

In general, yes, these are a PITA to share the track w/ because of the poor handling characteristics and tire issues as already mentioned. I believe it is for this reason that the Legends and spec racers have their own race group when running w/ NASA-MA, though they do practice and qualify w/ the other race groups.

Regards,

Sam

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MattP &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">People race these on non-ovals?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yep. There's a pretty good group of them racing with Conference up here. There's also a larger group racing the Evergreen oval.

 

I think Legends are neato. Thats all.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MattP &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">People race these on non-ovals?

signed,
Shocked in the South</TD></TR></TABLE>

HA HA HA.....your silly

 

there was a collegiate legends series, i know UNC charlotte had a team. they look like fun cars, about the power/weight of a formula ford.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PUSHER &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I've run accross turn key cars from 2k-5k</TD></TR></TABLE>

I dont know about $2k-5k for a Legend most Legends I have seen are from $7,500 - $10,000

http://www.racingjunk.com/exec/ca/browse/73/


Modified by MarkosMotorsports at 4:51 PM 9/13/2005


Modified by MarkosMotorsports at 4:52 PM 9/13/2005

 

i should get a legend for my fiance... hahahaaa.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Markus &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> As mentioned, I've been out on the track with a Legend as well as open wheel and SRF cars - basically I don't like being in a group with small cars such as this as they can be harder to spot and they take a totally different line...
For comparison, picture taken on Beaverun front straight over Labor Day:
</TD></TR></TABLE>
That's a poor photo to use a a comparison. The perspective with the Legend in the foreground makes it look almost the same size as a Miata. It isn't. Not even close. I've run around these guys in the 25Hour race at Thunderhill and I too must say they are uncomfortable to be on the track with. They take weird lines, don't handle and they're just too damned small. It's like being on the track with motorcycles. I feel like I'll blow it over if I get to close...

 

john i think you are taller then those legends are long.

 

it is my understanding that all you you need to run in legends is have an inex license, which is not really a license seeing how all you have to do is pay for it

i could be wrong though... heard this a few years back.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MarkosMotorsports &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">[QUOTE=PUSHER] I've run accross turn key cars from 2k-5k QUOTE]

I dont know about $2k-5k for a Legend most Legends I have seen are from $7,500 - $10,000

http://www.racingjunk.com/exec/ca/browse/73/</TD></TR></TABLE>

I looked into them when they first came out the Legends and Bandeleros. The legend cars are sealed engines and need to be rebuilt by a certified tech which is not cheap, so this being cheaper then Karting not even close. Another added extra is you don't have to due drivers schools anybody can race who shows up.

New legends cost $10k that doesn't even include any extras like seat, tach ect....

Bandeleros are more like Karts but more expensive, and I really can't fit in one of those

 

Norcal has a large group of them, about 15-20 I think. Sometimes they are in our warm up group. I don't hate them per se, but I hate running with them. A bad legend driver will scare the hell out of you because of how fast they can lose it, and to be close enough to pass one means that your hood almost obscures your view. There are a few GOOD road racers who drive them in our region, but they just annoy you, because they run similar time to an H4, but are REALLY slow in corners due to the hard compound spec tire. It is very hard to share track without getting in each others way.

They also seem to not have the situational awareness most other racers have. I have had to make more than one emergency move because I was passing a pair and one decided to pass the one in front without looking around him first. They seem to only see the other legends in the field.

I bet they would be fun with slicks...

 

I ran the ICAR series (Intercollegiate Auto Racing) while taking Engineering classes at NCA&T. Legends cars are a BLAST to drive. I actually wasn't very excited about it the first time I went out because roundy round racing isn't my cup of tea but they were a hoot to drive. Sequential gearbox, fully adjustable front suspension, and nice hard tires so it moves around a lot. There are some tricks to make adjustments in the rear end, it can be offset to one side, the ride height can be adjusted through the coilovers, and the tires are cut on a stagger. Since you can't get any camber with the solid rear axle they shave the full tread tires at an angle and build the camber into the tire itself. I actually considered doing this in the front when I autocrossed my Civic in HS with Victoracers since I couldn't get any camber. I ended up going to STS instead.

I was amazed at how well these things turn in. Positive camber on the left side, negative on the right. You hit the brakes and turn in and as soon as the car is slowed down and rotates you stand on the gas. Twitchy and loose but a load of fun.

You can get them with two different engines, the older ones came with the motor from a Yamaha FJ1200 and these motors could be upgraded selectively. The heads were prone to cracking but they could be welded up when it happened. There was an oil cooling upgrade that fixed the problem (new cooling passages?). The newer cars come with a newer motor but I forget which bike it comes from. That motor is sealed and can only be worked on by 600 Racing authorized shops.

One other issue, make sure it has the upgraded fuel tank. They originally came with non SCCA approved fuel cells. And be sure you put the cap back on the fuel cell before the race, I saw a nasty fire at Lowe's caused by a car flipping wnd gas dumping. If you can find someone to let you try one on a test night I highly recommend it!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by STS_Underdog &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If you can find someone to let you try one on a test night I highly recommend it!</TD></TR></TABLE>

I dont know where you live... if you are close to So Cal you can do 10 laps for $50 at Irwindale Speedway

http://racetrainingusa.com/legends/index.php

 

That guy was slow as hell. He also didn't know how to give a point-by. Normally fun to watch, but that guy just annoyed me.

 

Didnt think I would get this much input, thats why I said dwarf and legends. When I said 2-5k I was refering to dwarf cars.
Some examples:
http://www.dwarfcar.com/Htm's/PreOwned.htm the trailer car package
and this forum has some for sale http://p206.ezboard.com/fdcrmessageboardfrm6
I dont expect to be able to find something 2 miles away for 2$ and know that it will take time to find one and even if it is turn key itll take some money to get it in top shape.


The point of this car would be to stay away from the 200ish$ event fees that roadcourse tracks have. Hence it would stay on dirt or oval tracks( if dirt courses with left and right turns exist then... yay) which I assume is cheaper. If this isnt true please enlighten me to the costs of entry fees. Appreciate all the information so far, apparently they arent meant for open lapping events, I'm also loling at some of the techniques for circle racing like shaving the tires slanted for camber. Thanks for the info.

edit: Does anyone understand a dwarf versus a legend. I've read around and I think I got it but not sure. From what I understand the legends car came first and has a metal shell and has fenders, dwarf came 10 or so years after and has a fiberglass shell and no fenders. So is a dwarf meant for dirt only and a legend for pavement? Seen so many pictures that have both on different tracks that I'm just confused and wondering if theyre raced against each other or what. If anyone could clear that up id appreciate it.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MarkosMotorsports &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I dont know where you live... if you are close to So Cal you can do 10 laps for $50 at Irwindale Speedway

http://racetrainingusa.com/legends/index.php</TD></TR></TABLE>


Yea, they have something like that in houston, mainly waiting to catch an event at a local dirt track and see if I could look at a cpl cars and talk to some drivers.