Getting into first while moving? (searched)
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Getting into first while moving? (searched)
Ok... Ive been searching with soo many different workings and im sick of it so here it is...
For autox most of the speeds are in 1st and 2nd gear range however my teg doesnt go into 1st when moving just like all hondas.
How do i get into 1st? Rev matching? Can i get a walk through?
For autox most of the speeds are in 1st and 2nd gear range however my teg doesnt go into 1st when moving just like all hondas.
How do i get into 1st? Rev matching? Can i get a walk through?
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Re: Getting into first while moving? (matt87)
Since 1st gear and Reverse gear do not have Synchros you will have to rev match. Unfortunately the only way to rev-match a gear without synchros is to double clutch.
When you are going to shift from 2nd to 1st you will first push in the clutch and pull it out of gear and as the shift **** is in the neutral position you let out the clutch (so the tranny is engaged in neutral) and rev the engine to a few rpms higher than what the engine will be at when you are in 1st gear then you push in the clutch and drop it into 1st and voila.
You will find that as you get really good at this you will be able to rev the engine with the clutch engaged through neutral from 2nd to 1st, in one quick fluid motion.
When you are going to shift from 2nd to 1st you will first push in the clutch and pull it out of gear and as the shift **** is in the neutral position you let out the clutch (so the tranny is engaged in neutral) and rev the engine to a few rpms higher than what the engine will be at when you are in 1st gear then you push in the clutch and drop it into 1st and voila.
You will find that as you get really good at this you will be able to rev the engine with the clutch engaged through neutral from 2nd to 1st, in one quick fluid motion.
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Re: Getting into first while moving? (matt87)
Most people on this board(except the extremly competive National people) never shift in to first after they go in to second. It generally is slower than using 2nd. With that said you are going to have yo use rev matching to get it back down into gear.
Josh who has to use rev matching almost every autocross to go from 3rd to 2nd. I have really short gears.
Basically if you have to ask this question you need to leave in 2nd.
Josh who has to use rev matching almost every autocross to go from 3rd to 2nd. I have really short gears.
Basically if you have to ask this question you need to leave in 2nd.
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Re: Getting into first while moving? (Mattamotor)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Basically if you have to ask this question you need to leave in 2nd.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Unless of course, you're on a _REALLY_ tight course (you're probably not) or you're doing gymkhana or something, that is... If you hear all the experienced/fast guys (especially if they're in cars similar to yours) all downshifting, then maybe you should consider it for yourself, but usually that's not the case.
Even when it feels you're bogging in second, you've got to consider:
the time to shift from 2nd to first
the upset to the car you're going to inflict if you're not perfect
the chance that you'll just spin the wheels if you aren't judicious with the throttle (since you're usually in a very tight turn when you want to go to first)
finally the shift back to second (hoping you don't bump the rev limiter in there as well)
Almost universally, people find they're better off leaving it in second, being smooth, and working on their line/entry into the corner to carry more speed through (often by braking more/better/at a more appropriate point in the corner).
Practice the downshift to first as you come up to stop signs, if you're still interested in developing the skill. It's not done with the same urgency at a stop sign as in autocross, but you can at least get the rudiments of the technique.
After the fact edit: embarrassing your/you're error
Modified by MechE00 at 5:52 AM 9/9/2005
Unless of course, you're on a _REALLY_ tight course (you're probably not) or you're doing gymkhana or something, that is... If you hear all the experienced/fast guys (especially if they're in cars similar to yours) all downshifting, then maybe you should consider it for yourself, but usually that's not the case.
Even when it feels you're bogging in second, you've got to consider:
the time to shift from 2nd to first
the upset to the car you're going to inflict if you're not perfect
the chance that you'll just spin the wheels if you aren't judicious with the throttle (since you're usually in a very tight turn when you want to go to first)
finally the shift back to second (hoping you don't bump the rev limiter in there as well)
Almost universally, people find they're better off leaving it in second, being smooth, and working on their line/entry into the corner to carry more speed through (often by braking more/better/at a more appropriate point in the corner).
Practice the downshift to first as you come up to stop signs, if you're still interested in developing the skill. It's not done with the same urgency at a stop sign as in autocross, but you can at least get the rudiments of the technique.
After the fact edit: embarrassing your/you're error
Modified by MechE00 at 5:52 AM 9/9/2005
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Re: Getting into first while moving? (MechE00)
Let it bog, concentrate on smoother entry with more speed.
For me the only exception is pin turns (not hairpins) that enter and exit 180° around a single cone. Unless its one of those, I'll avoid shifting. I still get tempted to try it once in a while for other things, but its never faster for me.
Modified by fireant at 7:14 AM 9/9/2005
For me the only exception is pin turns (not hairpins) that enter and exit 180° around a single cone. Unless its one of those, I'll avoid shifting. I still get tempted to try it once in a while for other things, but its never faster for me.
Modified by fireant at 7:14 AM 9/9/2005
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Re: Getting into first while moving? (fireant)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by fireant »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Let it bog, concentrate on smoother entry with more speed.
For me the only exception is pin turns (not hairpins) that enter and exit 180° around a single cone. Unless its one of those, I'll avoid shifting. I still get tempted to try it once in a while for other things, but its never faster for me.
Modified by fireant at 7:14 AM 9/9/2005</TD></TR></TABLE>
same here, but i just heel-toe it into first in my 86. can do it down to about 15mph it'll go in no problem.
For me the only exception is pin turns (not hairpins) that enter and exit 180° around a single cone. Unless its one of those, I'll avoid shifting. I still get tempted to try it once in a while for other things, but its never faster for me.
Modified by fireant at 7:14 AM 9/9/2005</TD></TR></TABLE>
same here, but i just heel-toe it into first in my 86. can do it down to about 15mph it'll go in no problem.
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From: Browns Summit, NC, USA
Re: Getting into first while moving? (rice_classic)
[QUOTE=rice_classic]Since 1st gear and Reverse gear do not have Synchros you will have to rev match. Unfortunately the only way to rev-match a gear without synchros is to double clutch.
[QUOTE]
uhhhhhh HELLO......DO NOT POST WRONG INFO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and what you just posted is WRONG!!!
would you like a picture of a honda first gear syncro??
double clutching is never needed in a 89 or newer honda tranny...dont' know about the old stuff
to get it into first from 2nd you gotta rev the **** out of the engine and slam it in gear.....but like everyone else said....keep it in second gear....
[QUOTE]
uhhhhhh HELLO......DO NOT POST WRONG INFO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and what you just posted is WRONG!!!
would you like a picture of a honda first gear syncro??
double clutching is never needed in a 89 or newer honda tranny...dont' know about the old stuff
to get it into first from 2nd you gotta rev the **** out of the engine and slam it in gear.....but like everyone else said....keep it in second gear....
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From: Mundelein, IL
Re: Getting into first while moving? (chad)
wouldnt slamming it in first do any damage? What is actually holding it back from easily going into first like any other gear?
The problem I see about not being able easily go into first is that half of the time il be out of the power band and trying to make it up to it.
The problem I see about not being able easily go into first is that half of the time il be out of the power band and trying to make it up to it.
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Re: Getting into first while moving? (matt87)
Never had a problem getting my STS Civic into first gear. I never bother to heel/toe in autocross. I do heel/toe on the street but generally on course I just cram it in while I'm on the brakes and let out the clutch. Been autcrossing the car since I got it at 108,000 miles and the car now has 227,000 miles and no tranny problems. Part of the reason I haven't hurt anything yet may be because it is pretty rare that I need to go to first.
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Re: Getting into first while moving? (STS_Underdog)
I'm wondering why it's different on different cars. My Neon would go into 1st gear at surprisingly high speeds (like 25mph) but my brothers mkIII golf almost refuses to go into 1st at anything above ~5mph. My Miata doesn't like 1st at higher speeds, but it has a much shorter FD than my Neon (had a 3.55 
) so 1st isn't needed as much.
Wondering if there is anything in the transmission, in the way that it's designed, to avoid easily shifting to 1st at speed to prevent any possible destruction.
Ben
) so 1st isn't needed as much.Wondering if there is anything in the transmission, in the way that it's designed, to avoid easily shifting to 1st at speed to prevent any possible destruction.
Ben
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Re: Getting into first while moving? (chad)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chad »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
uhhhhhh HELLO......DO NOT POST WRONG INFO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and what you just posted is WRONG!!! And I wanted to take this moment to be a dick.
would you like a picture of a honda first gear syncro??
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I just went and looked at the two trannies we have in pieces in our garage and yes.. there is a first gear synchro. But since you can't slide the tranny from 2nd to 1st when your moving that's the SAME experience you get when you drive a tranny that doesn't have a 1st gear synchro.
uhhhhh HELLO! I can use a million exclamation marks as well !!!!!!!!!!!! Wow.. look at all of those aren't they fun?????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Some people have experience with cars OTHER than hondas you know.
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From: Chicagoland, IL
Re: Getting into first while moving? (Mattamotor)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mattamotor »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Most people on this board(except the extremly competive National people) never shift in to first after they go in to second.</TD></TR></TABLE>
That's an awful broad generalization... I used to try to get to 1st as much as possible as a novice, until I realised it WAS just slowing me down, upsetting the car and causing another 1st/2nd downshift.
Not to mention, it beats the **** out of the clutch and what little 1st gear synchro there is.
There may be cases where a nationally competitive driver can eek out those last few hundredths by using 1st gear... but I'd say that more novices do it incorrectly or are just slowing down too much
-Chris
That's an awful broad generalization... I used to try to get to 1st as much as possible as a novice, until I realised it WAS just slowing me down, upsetting the car and causing another 1st/2nd downshift.
Not to mention, it beats the **** out of the clutch and what little 1st gear synchro there is.
There may be cases where a nationally competitive driver can eek out those last few hundredths by using 1st gear... but I'd say that more novices do it incorrectly or are just slowing down too much
-Chris
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From: Browns Summit, NC, USA
Re: Getting into first while moving? (rice_classic)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rice_classic »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I just went and looked at the two trannies we have in pieces in our garage and yes.. there is a first gear synchro. But since you can't slide the tranny from 2nd to 1st when your moving that's the SAME experience you get when you drive a tranny that doesn't have a 1st gear synchro.
uhhhhh HELLO! I can use a million exclamation marks as well !!!!!!!!!!!! Wow.. look at all of those aren't they fun?????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Some people have experience with cars OTHER than hondas you know. </TD></TR></TABLE>
so explain it to me again? why it won't go into first gear?? every civic i have had it will go into first gear!!!! why would his be any different?
exclamation points denote WRONG INFO....and you had and still have wrong info....
don't post if you don't know...he said honda...
I just went and looked at the two trannies we have in pieces in our garage and yes.. there is a first gear synchro. But since you can't slide the tranny from 2nd to 1st when your moving that's the SAME experience you get when you drive a tranny that doesn't have a 1st gear synchro.
uhhhhh HELLO! I can use a million exclamation marks as well !!!!!!!!!!!! Wow.. look at all of those aren't they fun?????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Some people have experience with cars OTHER than hondas you know. </TD></TR></TABLE>
so explain it to me again? why it won't go into first gear?? every civic i have had it will go into first gear!!!! why would his be any different?
exclamation points denote WRONG INFO....and you had and still have wrong info....
don't post if you don't know...he said honda...
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Re: Getting into first while moving? (chad)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chad »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">so explain it to me again? why it won't go into first gear?? every civic i have had it will go into first gear!!!! why would his be any different?
exclamation points denote WRONG INFO....and you had and still have wrong info....
don't post if you don't know...he said honda...</TD></TR></TABLE>
Ah but I was half right.. Reverse doesn't have a synchro.
And ALL 4 hondas I've owned and including my father's ITR you can't just "slide" it into 1st gear while you're moving you HAVE double clutch for a rolling, smooth transition into 1st. Sorry buddy but that's just the way it is. I've NEVER driven a honda that goes into 1st gear smoothly while the car is at speed. period.
My advice to the original poster WAS CORRECT but just one little detail was off and it didn't justify 6000 exclamation marks. Chill out dude.. don't get your panties in a twist over the internet. Besides the person who posted immediately after me corrected my misinformation.
So grab a glass of water and swallow a couple of these:
Modified by rice_classic at 1:18 AM 9/10/2005
exclamation points denote WRONG INFO....and you had and still have wrong info....
don't post if you don't know...he said honda...</TD></TR></TABLE>
Ah but I was half right.. Reverse doesn't have a synchro.
And ALL 4 hondas I've owned and including my father's ITR you can't just "slide" it into 1st gear while you're moving you HAVE double clutch for a rolling, smooth transition into 1st. Sorry buddy but that's just the way it is. I've NEVER driven a honda that goes into 1st gear smoothly while the car is at speed. period.
My advice to the original poster WAS CORRECT but just one little detail was off and it didn't justify 6000 exclamation marks. Chill out dude.. don't get your panties in a twist over the internet. Besides the person who posted immediately after me corrected my misinformation.
So grab a glass of water and swallow a couple of these:
Modified by rice_classic at 1:18 AM 9/10/2005
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Re: Getting into first while moving? (Chris F)
Well then maybe i should say most of the "good" people on this board.
and by national competive, i should of said national competive stock honda driver(S2000 and ITRS) they were using first at last years nationals, and probably to cars that can.
and by national competive, i should of said national competive stock honda driver(S2000 and ITRS) they were using first at last years nationals, and probably to cars that can.
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From: Seattle, WA / Ann Arbor, MI
Re: Getting into first while moving? (fireant)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by fireant »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">For me the only exception is pin turns (not hairpins) that enter and exit 180° around a single cone. Unless its one of those, I'll avoid shifting. I still get tempted to try it once in a while for other things, but its never faster for me.
Modified by fireant at 7:14 AM 9/9/2005</TD></TR></TABLE>
I encounter quite a few of these turns, especially when I used to autocross up north where they had some very tight bends. Using heel and toe I can downshift to 1st at anything below 30mph no problem. There are a few instances where it has definitely been quite a bit faster for me... although there are certainly instances where I could have chosen first but I believe it would have just slowed me down overall. Definitely possible though if you do decide it's advantageous.
Modified by fireant at 7:14 AM 9/9/2005</TD></TR></TABLE>
I encounter quite a few of these turns, especially when I used to autocross up north where they had some very tight bends. Using heel and toe I can downshift to 1st at anything below 30mph no problem. There are a few instances where it has definitely been quite a bit faster for me... although there are certainly instances where I could have chosen first but I believe it would have just slowed me down overall. Definitely possible though if you do decide it's advantageous.
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Re: Getting into first while moving? (Mattamotor)
I've trophied 4x (Stock and STX) at Nats in an ITR. Downshifted to 1st probably 1 of the 2 courses every <U>other</U> year. Not often, not required, but sometimes advantageous, but even then it's not huge (1/10 to 2/10's is usually the gain as verified in testing at EVO schools). Definitely can be done smoothly, but takes practice.
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Re: Getting into first while moving? (rice_classic)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rice_classic »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
And ALL 4 hondas I've owned and including my father's ITR you can't just "slide" it into 1st gear while you're moving you HAVE double clutch for a rolling, smooth transition into 1st. Sorry buddy but that's just the way it is. I've NEVER driven a honda that goes into 1st gear smoothly while the car is at speed. period.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Don't know why you have trouble, you are welcome to try my 89,90, or 91 Civic Si's or the 89 CRX Si. All four will go into 1st when needed without any heel toe. Maybe you're doing something wrong?
And ALL 4 hondas I've owned and including my father's ITR you can't just "slide" it into 1st gear while you're moving you HAVE double clutch for a rolling, smooth transition into 1st. Sorry buddy but that's just the way it is. I've NEVER driven a honda that goes into 1st gear smoothly while the car is at speed. period.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Don't know why you have trouble, you are welcome to try my 89,90, or 91 Civic Si's or the 89 CRX Si. All four will go into 1st when needed without any heel toe. Maybe you're doing something wrong?
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Re: Getting into first while moving? (STS_Underdog)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by STS_Underdog »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Don't know why you have trouble, you are welcome to try my 89,90, or 91 Civic Si's or the 89 CRX Si. All four will go into 1st when needed without any heel toe. Maybe you're doing something wrong?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Not heel-toe... double clutch.
Getting my car(s) into 1st is easy when they're stopped but if I have to shift from 2nd to 1st while moving it will bend your shift forks without a double clutch.
Not heel-toe... double clutch.
Getting my car(s) into 1st is easy when they're stopped but if I have to shift from 2nd to 1st while moving it will bend your shift forks without a double clutch.
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Re: Getting into first while moving? (rice_classic)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rice_classic »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Not heel-toe... double clutch.
Getting my car(s) into 1st is easy when they're stopped but if I have to shift from 2nd to 1st while moving it will bend your shift forks without a double clutch.</TD></TR></TABLE>Maybe it will bend YOUR shift forks, but I've used 1st an an autocross course in multiple Hondas, multiple times and never had a problem.
Getting my car(s) into 1st is easy when they're stopped but if I have to shift from 2nd to 1st while moving it will bend your shift forks without a double clutch.</TD></TR></TABLE>Maybe it will bend YOUR shift forks, but I've used 1st an an autocross course in multiple Hondas, multiple times and never had a problem.
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Re: Getting into first while moving? (matt87)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by matt87 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">For autox most of the speeds are in 1st and 2nd gear range however my teg doesnt go into 1st when moving just like all hondas. </TD></TR></TABLE>
So apparently I'm not the only one.
So apparently I'm not the only one.
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Re: Getting into first while moving? (rice_classic)
Mine doesn't like it. I don't have to dbl-clutch though, just rev match. I've never driven a non-sychronized trans before but if I heard right you dbl clutch to upshift and rev match to down. That could be wrong though. Now I'm dbl clutching into third, but the trans is comming apart this off season too so...
My Volvo didn't have 1st gear synchros, and the pedals were layed out completly wrong, that one you really could forget it unless you wanted to stop first.
Does anyone have a source for heady duty synchros and straight-cut gears for a honda?
My Volvo didn't have 1st gear synchros, and the pedals were layed out completly wrong, that one you really could forget it unless you wanted to stop first.
Does anyone have a source for heady duty synchros and straight-cut gears for a honda?