Is this a stupid idea? (Towing to Nationals question)
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From: Atlanta, GA
Is this a stupid idea? (Towing to Nationals question)
My codriver Jim came to me with an "idea". Now this guy is a senior Mechanical Engineering student... while I'm a lowly junior... Usually, I listen to what Jim has to say...but I'm questioning that at this point.
The premise:
Use the codriver's '92 Civic VX with 143k on the clock, previously owned by a Minehart, weighs 2100 lbs and use a tow dolly to tow the '93 E-stock MR2 to Topeka for Nationals. For reference, the MR2 is 2500 lbs in full race trim, which it won't be, so figure on 2750 lbs loaded with stuff. Being towed with a 2100 lb car...
Racecar owner's (myself) point:
A) I'm not sure the car will stop....prior to having it be stopped by some piece of Earth or metal.
B) (A) may not even be an issue, unless of course we can actually get it to START rolling.
C) Quote from codriver, "If we survive this, it might be the coolest thing ever."
D) Another quote from codriver, "It'll be cool....we'll give her an oil change before we go."
E) We'd be known as "those guys", and in this case, not the cool way.
This is quite possibly the stupidest idea I've ever heard, and things like, "Jesse, you have no sense of adventure", don't seem to making any progess on making me think this is a better idea. I also want to point out the fact that Jim has recently broken up with his pyschotic ex-girlfriend, yet again, and so his thinking may not include a lot of self preservation right this second.
The codriver's ("tow vehicle" owner) counter-point:
Hi my name is Jim Reyenga, and Jesse has no vision. This is how I see it.
a) We will both ride in a/c
b) We can split the 18 hour driving duty
c) We save on the $3+/gal gas
d) It could be quite possibly the coolest thing ever
e) We'd be known as "those guys"
If we can get a tow-dolly with inertia brakes, the stopping can be taken care of. If there are no brakes on the dolly, we could always swerve. Tow-dolly's have a real wheelbase unlike normal car trailers, and are much more stable. Will the car be fast? Hell no! As a side note, our prestigeous and generous sponsor "Angry Eli's Shadetree Motorsports" thinks this is a brilliant idea. It's forward innovative thinking like this that is the future of the University of Florida engineering alumnus. Hell, you only live once, and we're young. I figure we can't wreck it as bad as Jesse did to his Protege (r.i.p.)
please discuss
The premise:
Use the codriver's '92 Civic VX with 143k on the clock, previously owned by a Minehart, weighs 2100 lbs and use a tow dolly to tow the '93 E-stock MR2 to Topeka for Nationals. For reference, the MR2 is 2500 lbs in full race trim, which it won't be, so figure on 2750 lbs loaded with stuff. Being towed with a 2100 lb car...
Racecar owner's (myself) point:
A) I'm not sure the car will stop....prior to having it be stopped by some piece of Earth or metal.
B) (A) may not even be an issue, unless of course we can actually get it to START rolling.
C) Quote from codriver, "If we survive this, it might be the coolest thing ever."
D) Another quote from codriver, "It'll be cool....we'll give her an oil change before we go."
E) We'd be known as "those guys", and in this case, not the cool way.
This is quite possibly the stupidest idea I've ever heard, and things like, "Jesse, you have no sense of adventure", don't seem to making any progess on making me think this is a better idea. I also want to point out the fact that Jim has recently broken up with his pyschotic ex-girlfriend, yet again, and so his thinking may not include a lot of self preservation right this second.
The codriver's ("tow vehicle" owner) counter-point:
Hi my name is Jim Reyenga, and Jesse has no vision. This is how I see it.
a) We will both ride in a/c
b) We can split the 18 hour driving duty
c) We save on the $3+/gal gas
d) It could be quite possibly the coolest thing ever
e) We'd be known as "those guys"
If we can get a tow-dolly with inertia brakes, the stopping can be taken care of. If there are no brakes on the dolly, we could always swerve. Tow-dolly's have a real wheelbase unlike normal car trailers, and are much more stable. Will the car be fast? Hell no! As a side note, our prestigeous and generous sponsor "Angry Eli's Shadetree Motorsports" thinks this is a brilliant idea. It's forward innovative thinking like this that is the future of the University of Florida engineering alumnus. Hell, you only live once, and we're young. I figure we can't wreck it as bad as Jesse did to his Protege (r.i.p.)
please discuss
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From: Lancaster, PA, USA
Re: Is this a stupid idea? (PseudoRealityX)
Ok, let's do the risk/reward equation.
You are towing from Gainesville to Topeka - that's 1193 miles per Google maps.
So your mileage is roughly 2400 miles.
Now let's say the Honda gets 30mpg (doubtful while towing since GVW will now be double)
That's 80 gallons.
At $3.50 / gallon
That's $280.
Now, let's say your alternative is towing with a real tow vehicle that gets 10 mpg
That's 240 gallons
At $3.50 / gallon
That's $840.
So the most that this scheme can save is $560.
But you have to rent or buy a tow dolly. Figure you rent. And figure the rental is $20 / day (I really have no idea but that seems reasonable). If you take 2 days there and 2 days back and are in Topeka for 3 days, that's 7 days. So figure that rental costs a minimum of $140
Also, does the Honda have a hitch? If so is it rated at 3000 lbs? If not you need a new hitch. Figure a cheap $250 installed.
Now, let's figure that this adventure will kill something on the Honda. Could be the clutch, could be the brakes, could be some tires, could be the rear subframe. I say that you will have at least $200 in repairs for the Honda.
$560 - gas savings
-140 - tow dolly
-250 - hitch
-200 - repoairs
=
a loss of $50
So, if you don't kill yourselves because of an unstable, overloaded vehicle, you mmight save a maximum of $560 but more likely it will cost you an extra $50. Now there is a chance that you will break down on the side of the road and be unable to make it to Topeka. If so then you have wasted $200 in entry fees plus hotels plus all the above costs.
This "idea" is about as cool and stupid as not spending $250 million on levee strengthening so that when the big one hits 100s die and billions are spent on repair.
regards,
alan
You are towing from Gainesville to Topeka - that's 1193 miles per Google maps.
So your mileage is roughly 2400 miles.
Now let's say the Honda gets 30mpg (doubtful while towing since GVW will now be double)
That's 80 gallons.
At $3.50 / gallon
That's $280.
Now, let's say your alternative is towing with a real tow vehicle that gets 10 mpg
That's 240 gallons
At $3.50 / gallon
That's $840.
So the most that this scheme can save is $560.
But you have to rent or buy a tow dolly. Figure you rent. And figure the rental is $20 / day (I really have no idea but that seems reasonable). If you take 2 days there and 2 days back and are in Topeka for 3 days, that's 7 days. So figure that rental costs a minimum of $140
Also, does the Honda have a hitch? If so is it rated at 3000 lbs? If not you need a new hitch. Figure a cheap $250 installed.
Now, let's figure that this adventure will kill something on the Honda. Could be the clutch, could be the brakes, could be some tires, could be the rear subframe. I say that you will have at least $200 in repairs for the Honda.
$560 - gas savings
-140 - tow dolly
-250 - hitch
-200 - repoairs
=
a loss of $50
So, if you don't kill yourselves because of an unstable, overloaded vehicle, you mmight save a maximum of $560 but more likely it will cost you an extra $50. Now there is a chance that you will break down on the side of the road and be unable to make it to Topeka. If so then you have wasted $200 in entry fees plus hotels plus all the above costs.
This "idea" is about as cool and stupid as not spending $250 million on levee strengthening so that when the big one hits 100s die and billions are spent on repair.
regards,
alan
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 2,014
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From: Shiny side up dammit, MO
Why can't you both ride in the MR2??
BTW, in the Midwest Division, there is are two brothers who run an old *** golf and tow to races with a Focus. And let's just say that these two brothers aren't exactly lightweights.....
BTW, in the Midwest Division, there is are two brothers who run an old *** golf and tow to races with a Focus. And let's just say that these two brothers aren't exactly lightweights.....
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From: Richmond VA
Re: (carl_aka_carlos)
Despite the fact that I am a graduated mechanical engineer who appreciates thinking outside the box... umm... YIKES guys.
I do think it could be the coolest think ever to roll up to Topeka in a Civic hatch "tow-vehicle" but I'm pretty sure you'd never make it there. A Civic/Integra is a pretty unhappy camper pulling the weight of 5 extra people in it. Hills could suck a LOT with that amount of power and well, no torque. That assumes you'd ever get the thing moving. You'd probably torch the clutch getting the whole thing rolling, and you'd be putting a TON more stress on the tranny+engine. I think you could break the tranny without too much effort, and if you don't physically rip it apart, you'd overheat and cook the tranny+motor anyways. But I don't think the whole mess would stop pretty much ever if you did get rolling.
I like crazy things, but I see very little chance of this working without blowing yourselves up. Consider carefully who this "you're gonna shoot your eye out' advice is coming from...
I do think it could be the coolest think ever to roll up to Topeka in a Civic hatch "tow-vehicle" but I'm pretty sure you'd never make it there. A Civic/Integra is a pretty unhappy camper pulling the weight of 5 extra people in it. Hills could suck a LOT with that amount of power and well, no torque. That assumes you'd ever get the thing moving. You'd probably torch the clutch getting the whole thing rolling, and you'd be putting a TON more stress on the tranny+engine. I think you could break the tranny without too much effort, and if you don't physically rip it apart, you'd overheat and cook the tranny+motor anyways. But I don't think the whole mess would stop pretty much ever if you did get rolling.
I like crazy things, but I see very little chance of this working without blowing yourselves up. Consider carefully who this "you're gonna shoot your eye out' advice is coming from...
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From: Plotting My Revenge
Re: (carl_aka_carlos)
we could always swerve.
When this is part of the "plan," do you really need further discussion?
Seriously.
I've had difficulty slowing down my Toyota Tundra (7200lb towing capacity) towing about 4000lbs when people slam on their brakes in front of me (and this always happens, you just dont really notice it until you are towing). And I have dual axle brakes on my trailer.
This is an extremely bad idea. I hope you guys are joking.
Scott, who almost wrote off the truck, trailer, and race car last month when he crested a hill on I-85 at about 65mph and discovered ALL LANES dead stopped.
I ended up on the shoulder, about 3 cars ahead of the car I would have smashed had I not been lucky enough to have an open, wide shoulder available.
When this is part of the "plan," do you really need further discussion?
Seriously.
I've had difficulty slowing down my Toyota Tundra (7200lb towing capacity) towing about 4000lbs when people slam on their brakes in front of me (and this always happens, you just dont really notice it until you are towing). And I have dual axle brakes on my trailer.
This is an extremely bad idea. I hope you guys are joking.
Scott, who almost wrote off the truck, trailer, and race car last month when he crested a hill on I-85 at about 65mph and discovered ALL LANES dead stopped.
I ended up on the shoulder, about 3 cars ahead of the car I would have smashed had I not been lucky enough to have an open, wide shoulder available.
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Re: (WRXRacer111)
I don't think it's a good idea. Our Odyssey can tow up to 3500lbs and it's a V6 engine. 250hp and more torque than the little VX. Plus I think they only make Class I hitches for Civics, which are rated around 800lbs.
I'd personally see if you can hook up one of those Harbo Freight trailers (4x5' or 4x8') and install a hitch on the MR2 then tow that behind the MR2. You'd get better mpg and not have to worry about not being able to stop and killing the Civic VX.
I know Joe Austin (HS Mini Cooper) tows one of the larger Harbor Freight trailers instead of the mini trailer. He's able to carry 2-3 sets of tires, jack, and tools.
I'd personally see if you can hook up one of those Harbo Freight trailers (4x5' or 4x8') and install a hitch on the MR2 then tow that behind the MR2. You'd get better mpg and not have to worry about not being able to stop and killing the Civic VX.
I know Joe Austin (HS Mini Cooper) tows one of the larger Harbor Freight trailers instead of the mini trailer. He's able to carry 2-3 sets of tires, jack, and tools.
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From: Plotting My Revenge
Re: (Catch 22)
BTW - The brakes on that Civic are going to fade IMMEDIATELY if you have to try to panic stop that 5000ish pounds.
I'm not kidding. Its happened to me in my truck and its not fun. You're helpless.
I'm not kidding. Its happened to me in my truck and its not fun. You're helpless.
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From: MA
Re: (Catch 22)
jesse, drive out in the mr2. i'll be making the trip driving the STS monster. do you have a radio? you're one up on me then. 
i'd rather you stink bad and make it then be comfortably chilled in your tin can coffin.
nate - will be putting some softer rear springs in the car tomorrow, and the stock seat, but not the radio or a/c or a quieter exhaust. *checks stock on ear plugs*
i'd rather you stink bad and make it then be comfortably chilled in your tin can coffin.nate - will be putting some softer rear springs in the car tomorrow, and the stock seat, but not the radio or a/c or a quieter exhaust. *checks stock on ear plugs*
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From: Suffolk, VA, 23437
Re: Is this a stupid idea? (PseudoRealityX)
I have towed my 1800 lb. CRX on a tow dolly with my wife's '95 Civic Coupe DX a couple of times. Towing time was 4.5 hours, both timees. It was not fun, especially on hills.
Coolest? No. Flat-towing a Triumph cross-country behind a Jaguar, yearly. Much cooler.
Coolest? No. Flat-towing a Triumph cross-country behind a Jaguar, yearly. Much cooler.
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From: Atlanta, GA
You guys are taking this WAY too seriously...
We were joking... current plan is to take both the Civic and MR2, but both under their own power. The MR2 by itself + tire trailer still doesn't carry enough stuff for us. We did it 2 years ago, and having a vehicle to use around Topeka is very useful.
We were joking... current plan is to take both the Civic and MR2, but both under their own power. The MR2 by itself + tire trailer still doesn't carry enough stuff for us. We did it 2 years ago, and having a vehicle to use around Topeka is very useful.
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From: Columbia, MO, USA
Re: (PseudoRealityX)
It's muy awesome to either be friends with a street-tire guy (not that those jerkwads aren't all trailer-queens now anyway ) or have a pit vehikkle. One of the reasons I like co-driving other people's cars is that I can ferry me, my codriver, and my tires around in whatever I drive to the event.
) or have a pit vehikkle. One of the reasons I like co-driving other people's cars is that I can ferry me, my codriver, and my tires around in whatever I drive to the event.
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From: Plotting My Revenge
Re: (TeamSlowdotOrg)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TeamSlowdotOrg »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">not that those jerkwads aren't all trailer-queens now anyway </TD></TR></TABLE>
Ahhhhh... Youth.
There was a time that I also said I'd never trailer an autocross car on street tires.
Now I'm older, and value things like air conditioning, soft springs, and a radio. I also have a truck, a trailer, and money in the bank.
I can also put my car on the trailer and be gone in air conditioned comfort while you young-uns are still changing tires.
Scott, who will be trailering a CRX on Falkens and loving every minute of it.
</TD></TR></TABLE>Ahhhhh... Youth.
There was a time that I also said I'd never trailer an autocross car on street tires.
Now I'm older, and value things like air conditioning, soft springs, and a radio. I also have a truck, a trailer, and money in the bank.
I can also put my car on the trailer and be gone in air conditioned comfort while you young-uns are still changing tires.
Scott, who will be trailering a CRX on Falkens and loving every minute of it.
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From: Atlanta, GA
Our decision to drive the MR2 is much more influenced by our combined financial situation than trying to be "hardcore". We have 2 trucks and a trailer available to tow out there. However, at $3 per gallon, it's just not feasible.
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From: topeka, KS, United States
Re: (PseudoRealityX)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PseudoRealityX »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">After seeing a mighty Altima driving at the Dothan Divisional....
Holy Overdriving Batman!
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Too bad no one ever got footage of me autocrossing my Altima. In-car footage would have induced motion-sickness in the hardiest of souls.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PseudoRealityX »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You guys are taking this WAY too seriously...
We were joking... current plan is to take both the Civic and MR2, but both under their own power. The MR2 by itself + tire trailer still doesn't carry enough stuff for us. We did it 2 years ago, and having a vehicle to use around Topeka is very useful.</TD></TR></TABLE>
You just need a bigger trailer. :-)
And you could use your Protege to tow the MR2. :-) (something about gearing and torque)
Oh, and U-haul rents tow dollies for $40/day. For the 9 days you'd need one (that doesn't have any brakes), you could probably buy a used one with brakes.
Holy Overdriving Batman!
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Too bad no one ever got footage of me autocrossing my Altima. In-car footage would have induced motion-sickness in the hardiest of souls.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PseudoRealityX »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You guys are taking this WAY too seriously...
We were joking... current plan is to take both the Civic and MR2, but both under their own power. The MR2 by itself + tire trailer still doesn't carry enough stuff for us. We did it 2 years ago, and having a vehicle to use around Topeka is very useful.</TD></TR></TABLE>
You just need a bigger trailer. :-)
And you could use your Protege to tow the MR2. :-) (something about gearing and torque)
Oh, and U-haul rents tow dollies for $40/day. For the 9 days you'd need one (that doesn't have any brakes), you could probably buy a used one with brakes.
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this is purely academic, as we aren't actually going to be using a tow-dolly, but on a more hypothetical level, I was thinking about how terrible, or non-terrible it might be.
1) It's possible to get a dolly with brakes. Between the civic being loaded with two passengers and tires, plus brakes on the dolly, though it wouldn't be ideal, braking would be in the realm of towing with a normal truck on no trailer brakes. The percentage of total weight controlled by the brakes could be up to 80% if the mr2 were loaded with the ***-end on the dolly.
2) These kinds of shenanigans have been done before. Before the good Dr. was indeed a Dr, Mr. Streilneks was known to tow his scirroco with a scirroco in the same manor.
3) Stability. We aren't talking about a normal trailer, but a dolly. With a dolly the element being towed has a substantial wheelbase, and a normal c.g. height. It should be MUCH more stable than a normal trailer, and if the tow vehicle has high-performance tires, it's ability to steer what's being towed should be capable.
4) Wear on the tow car? Why? It's not like the car is magically making more power. If you can run the car at a track day without a transmission cooler (manual), why would towing destroy the transmission? The clutch would see some extra wear during starts, but no more than letting my brother drive the car around town. The total "load" on the tow rig while cruising at 65mph, can't be higher than on the civic by itself at 95mph.
It might not be a great idea, but I'm convinced it's not the death-trap idea that many seem to think it is.
Perhaps I should talk to Hollis about installing a towing package on my civic, I believe he knows the part numbers
1) It's possible to get a dolly with brakes. Between the civic being loaded with two passengers and tires, plus brakes on the dolly, though it wouldn't be ideal, braking would be in the realm of towing with a normal truck on no trailer brakes. The percentage of total weight controlled by the brakes could be up to 80% if the mr2 were loaded with the ***-end on the dolly.
2) These kinds of shenanigans have been done before. Before the good Dr. was indeed a Dr, Mr. Streilneks was known to tow his scirroco with a scirroco in the same manor.
3) Stability. We aren't talking about a normal trailer, but a dolly. With a dolly the element being towed has a substantial wheelbase, and a normal c.g. height. It should be MUCH more stable than a normal trailer, and if the tow vehicle has high-performance tires, it's ability to steer what's being towed should be capable.
4) Wear on the tow car? Why? It's not like the car is magically making more power. If you can run the car at a track day without a transmission cooler (manual), why would towing destroy the transmission? The clutch would see some extra wear during starts, but no more than letting my brother drive the car around town. The total "load" on the tow rig while cruising at 65mph, can't be higher than on the civic by itself at 95mph.
It might not be a great idea, but I'm convinced it's not the death-trap idea that many seem to think it is.
Perhaps I should talk to Hollis about installing a towing package on my civic, I believe he knows the part numbers
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From: topeka, KS, United States
Just some numbers for you to think about, Jim.
With the Protege towing 1500lbs worth of Uhaul sport trailer (fairly aerodynamic), mileage fell from about 30 to 21 or so. You'd likely do most of the tow with your Civic in 4th gear, or even 3rd at times. You probably wouldn't save a lot of gas compared to driving both cars (assuming you get 35-40 in your Civic and Jesse gets 25-30 in the MR2, vs 20 or less towing.
People told me I was nuts towing with the Altima. My only problem (in over 5000 miles of towing) was borrowing the wrong trailer. As it (the trailer) was loaded, it would have pulled my current tow vehicle (Jeep GC) off the road too (who ever heard of >20% tongue weight?).
So, not saying it isn't possible. Just saying that there are small cars better suited for towing close to 3k lbs.
Oh, and don't count on great tires saving your *** when there's 2-3 times the weight pushing/pulling on your cars rear end (3000lbs of trailer vs perhaps 1000-1200lbs on the rear tires).
With the Protege towing 1500lbs worth of Uhaul sport trailer (fairly aerodynamic), mileage fell from about 30 to 21 or so. You'd likely do most of the tow with your Civic in 4th gear, or even 3rd at times. You probably wouldn't save a lot of gas compared to driving both cars (assuming you get 35-40 in your Civic and Jesse gets 25-30 in the MR2, vs 20 or less towing.
People told me I was nuts towing with the Altima. My only problem (in over 5000 miles of towing) was borrowing the wrong trailer. As it (the trailer) was loaded, it would have pulled my current tow vehicle (Jeep GC) off the road too (who ever heard of >20% tongue weight?).
So, not saying it isn't possible. Just saying that there are small cars better suited for towing close to 3k lbs.
Oh, and don't count on great tires saving your *** when there's 2-3 times the weight pushing/pulling on your cars rear end (3000lbs of trailer vs perhaps 1000-1200lbs on the rear tires).
