SPECIFICATIONS:
1997 Acura Integra Type-R
Omni-power sport coil-overs
OEM - lower front tie rod brace
OEM - lower rear tie rod brace
OEM - front sway bar
OEM - rear sway bar
SPOON - lower front tie rod brace
SPOON - lower rear tie rod brace
SPOON - front strut tower brace
SPOON - rear strut tower brace
SPOON - C-Pillar brace
Art Morrison 4-point weld in roll-bar
VOLK gram lights 17"
Manual steering
Mugen front lip
Mugen Generation 2 rear spoiler
factory spec alignment/camber/toe
lowered 1.5 inches
NO front factory splash guard/difuser

Over-all, the chassis is VERY stiff and there is minimal body roll.

PROBLEM: During moderate to high speeds, the front end simply feels like it's lifting, and while cornering at moderate speeds with undulations the car does not feel stable and planted. Even off the track cruising down the freeway at 60-70mph the car does not feel stable.

QUESTION: Is this simply a suspension geometry problem, or more of an aerodynamic problem? Whatever your answer may be, how can the problem be alleviated or at least controlled? Recommendations are welcome. I am familiar with canards, but simply feel that puting a pair of those on will not make much of a difference at all.

Thank you for your time.

 

how much did you spend on strut tie bars? how much did you spend on your coilover setup? 'nuff said.

nate

ps. in case i wasn't clear, get some real dampers and spring on the car

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by solo-x &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
ps. in case i wasn't clear, get some real dampers and spring on the car</TD></TR></TABLE>

He is correct.

You moving back to the mainland?

 

Splitter?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ohjolt2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Splitter?</TD></TR></TABLE>

from everything i have seen most aero doesn't do much untill above 80mph, i wouldn't consider 80mph moderate speeds.


but ya, i'd ditch the crappy suspension.

 

The additional rear downforce caused by the mugen wing may be contributing to your front end feeling squirrely. Solution: sell me your wing. Please.

Seriously though, I wouldn't doubt it's your omni power suspension. What are your damper settings at? What are your spring rates?

 

As far as I know, the dampening is non adjustable. The spring rates are 12 front 10 rear.

You = not getting my wing

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Haleiwa-Brando &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
PROBLEM: During moderate to high speeds, the front end simply feels like it's lifting, and while cornering at moderate speeds with undulations the car does not feel stable and planted. Even off the track cruising down the freeway at 60-70mph the car does not feel stable.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Can I ask a dumb question? Are you absolutely sure of the alignment settings?

The reason I'm asking is because your description sounds exactly like how I'd have described how my DC2 ITR was behaving at Expo 3.

We couldn't quite figure out what was wrong until it went on a good laser alignment machine and we realised there were things wrong w/the alignment that the backyard mechanic (** cough! ** <FONT COLOR="red">Corey!</FONT> ** cough! ** ) wasn't able to check.

It's possible you're facing a similar problem, and there is a gross adjustment, like basic thrust angle, that is just wrong.

It might cost you $150 with a good competition alignment specialist, but it'll be worth it.

 

Im with gramps on this one.

 

Interesting George. It COULD be out of wack but I feel that's unlikely. The car just got an alignment at good ol' Les Schwab <U>after</U> the coilovers, wheels and all the braces were installed.

 

If it feels unstable at 60-70mph it's definitelly not caused by aerodynamics...

 

Alignment first. Then I would check for loose suspension pieces/worn or ripped bushings. And, since you just got the car aligned, I would double check the toe-link bolts, etc.... he may not have tightened em good.

The doubt the car is lifting at 60-70. It might feel like a lift, but it probably isn't...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Batoutahell &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Seriously though, I wouldn't doubt it's your omni power suspension. What are your damper settings at? What are your spring rates?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Come on, you rode in my car with the exact same suspension. No adjustments, 12k/10k, stock everything else for suspension. It's stable at speed, even under braking(*). Zero toe rear, 1/4" inch toe out front.

Brandon, this definitely isn't an aero problem. Could be cornerweights, maybe your car is doing a balancing act on 2 wheels (like a table with 1 leg too short). Even that seems unlikely.

Other than that, yeah, good suggestions on torn bushings and alignment suggestions. If you're really after straight line stability you can play with a little toe-in in the front.

One more thing, some tires will make the car feel "darty". Of all the wheel/tire combinations I've used, +38 16x7 with Pirelli PZero Asymmetricos were the worst at giving a "stable" feeling. What offset are your wheels?

Also, with no p/s, if your tires are following ruts in the road, I'd think the sensation would be enhanced.

(*) - HPDE braking, not racing braking. Anyhow it's 200% better than the OEM suspension.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Haleiwa-Brando &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Interesting George. It COULD be out of wack but I feel that's unlikely. The car just got an alignment at good ol' Les Schwab <U>after</U> the coilovers, wheels and all the braces were installed.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I don't know who Les Schwab is, so you'll have to tell us if that's somebody with a good laser alignment machine, and if he's somebody with a reputation for good competition alignments.

I don't want to persist to the point that I make you mad but, as the Devil Chicken and others said, the speeds at which you're having this problem are not indicative of aerodynamic problems.

If with the installation of the Omnipower setup you ended up not replicating the four corner height of the OEM suspension, you will also introduce some extra difficulties. If you can measure a stock suspensioned DC2 ITR at the jacking points, and then either duplicate that on your car or duplicate the attitude, you'll lessen the chance of altering the car's excellent OEM balance.

 

Chris, I'm not bagging on the omni power brand. Although I wasn't crazy about how your car handled, your car did not feel unstable.

My point is the suspension is the most radical change to Brandon's car. Tires won't cause the front end the feel like it's lifting or unstable and not planted while driving on uneven road. Suspension, on the other hand, will do that. Even a good suspension that's set up improperly. Maybe there's a problem with the coilovers: the corner weights can be way off, one of the shocks can be blown, the spring rates may not be as advertised.

 

This is all very interesting. I really appreiciate the thoughtful, technical imput. I'm hopefully getting together with Jeremy (Jisu009) tonight with all my alignment paperwork to see if we can spot something that is incorrect or visually torn/broken.

Another question: Could this be an issue of the extra weight caused by the turbo system, throwing off the spring rates and dampening? Over the factory header there has to be another 100lbs of extra weight over the front wheels. Just a thought...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Haleiwa-Brando &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Another question: Could this be an issue of the extra weight caused by the turbo system, throwing off the spring rates and dampening? Over the factory header there has to be another 100lbs of extra weight over the front wheels. Just a thought...</TD></TR></TABLE>

No way dude.

-Chris

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by D.CACO &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Alignment first. Then I would check for loose suspension pieces/worn or ripped bushings. And, since you just got the car aligned, I would double check the toe-link bolts, etc.... he may not have tightened em good.

The doubt the car is lifting at 60-70. It might feel like a lift, but it probably isn't...
</TD></TR></TABLE>

It is fruitless to do an alignment first and then check for worn suspension pieces and/or bushings, the malfunctioning bushings and/or pieces is causing the alignment and ultimately the handling characteristics to be off in the first place. Same reason why a good technician will not align a car with severely worn tires.

Any good alignment technichian will/should do a pre-alignment check for worn suspension/steering pieces, fix those discrepencies, and then align the car.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chrisw85 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

It is fruitless to do an alignment first and then check for worn suspension pieces and/or bushings, the malfunctioning bushings and/or pieces is causing the alignment and ultimately the handling characteristics to be off in the first place. Same reason why a good technician will not align a car with severely worn tires.

Any good alignment technichian will/should do a pre-alignment check for worn suspension/steering pieces, fix those discrepencies, and then align the car.</TD></TR></TABLE>

You're right, although I only say to check the alignment first in terms of ease. Meaning, pull out the toe plates and do a quick 5 minute check. If the toe's all screwed up, you'll find out the problem real quick- even without jacking up the car.

Checking bushings would be second for me. And, of course, you are correct that Alignment is obviously useless if the suspension isn't acting right.

Either way, check everything.

 

How's the rake of your car?

 

I just got back from meeting up with Jeremy. I would like to say what we saw, what was fixed, what was tested and what is in consideration but he can explain it in a detail far better than me. Hopefully he wouldn't mind chiming in. The cliff notes would be something like this:
Traction Bar: Upon inspection it was missing two bolts that connected the traction bar to the subframe, just under the radiator. The traction bar bolts in place of the tow hooks on a DC2 chasis. Also noted; out of six bolts holding the traction bar to the subframe, three of those bolts were loose It was thought that perhaps during braking when weight shifted foward, these loose missing bolts were causing some unwanted suspension geometry. Once these repairs were made the car did feel a tad bit more solid in the front end.

Jeremy did a string alignment test to check toe in/out on all four wheels. This is by no means accurate but gives us an idea of what is going on. On 'appearance' everything seemed to be correct.

Inspection of the bushings, bolts, joints, coil-overs...everything looked okay.

The irradic braking problem is probably contributed by a few different things that we have determined: Roads in Washington ******* suck *** (rutted roads), wider contact patch over stock, lower profile less forgiving side wall on tire over stock, shitty TOYO FZ4 tires.

As far as these Omniman coilovers go, I think they are pretty decent. Mind you this is my 4th pair of coilovers on this car. These coilovers have beaten out three reputable companies: H&R, Neuspeed, Buddy Club. Jeremy threw out the idea that maybe the 12K springs in the front are not of the proper size for the dampening of the coil-over and to maybe try a 10K in the front and a 12K in the rear. From what I understand is that it 'could' get rid of that Cadillac feel in the front and create slight oversteer.

Jeremy drove the car...I know he has some imput on this. (I think he wants a turbo.... )

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Outrun &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">How's the rake of your car?</TD></TR></TABLE>
That's an idea, and I'll say again that it would be a good idea to check all four jacking points for height as ccompared with an OEM DC2 ITR.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Haleiwa-Brando &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Jeremy did a string alignment test to check toe in/out on all four wheels. This is by no means accurate....</TD></TR></TABLE>
No, it's not, and he cannot tell if something's wrong with what some of us think <u>might</u> be wrong (total thrust, etc).

God, I wish you'd go to a good alignment guy w/a good laser machine.

 

Big ball bearing turbos are awesome.

I am sure we handled the "wandering" under braking with tightening the traction bar and replacing the couple of bolts that were missing.

As for alignment and the "lift" or "cadillac'n"...I really didn't feel too much going on that was out of the ordinary. One of the issues was "tracking" while driving down the road, which is just something that happens when you add wide tires, big spring rates and lower a car. My first impression while driving the car was "the front end is really stiff." My suggestion was to switch the 12k springs to the rear and the 10k's to the front. Obviously it is driver preference on how a car handles, but that was my opinion. Another thing I was thinking is the shock in the Omni coilovers may not be able to control a 12K spring.

Other then that, it felt pretty good. Nothing out of the ordinary for his setup.

Another note:

Big ball bearing turbos kick much ***.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by George Knighton &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
No, it's not, and he cannot tell if something's wrong with what some of us think <u>might</u> be wrong (total thrust, etc).
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Agreed that it isn't "dead nuts" accurate, but I just put the strings on it to check and make sure there was nothing wrong like the toe being way out in the rear or something....