So after reading the "Costs to go Racing" thread, I realized that the monetary jump from attending track days to actual wheel to wheel racing is considerable. Doing track days, some minor suspension work and good tires on a decent car is more than enough to elicit the euphoria of pushing the car on a track without the additional pressures of worrying about position. Someone suggested racing on a budget just to have fun - doesn't make sense to me...why not just go to track days (save much more money if all you want is low cost fun).

To move on to actual racing: tow vehicle, trailer, best equipment money can buy, best tires, all the additional costs of travelling to different tracks, hotels, blah blah blah, just to be a little faster than the next guy that's also willing to dump his life savings into the car. Is it all worth the marginal utility over just cheap "track day" fun? Obviously since people do it. Any opposing viewpoints?

 

It's like a freeway...and every ramp say's "Doesn't make sense"...you just pick one.

Scott, who's broken down on the side of the freeway...

 

You determine your own level of involvement.....

Its only as expensive as you make it out to be.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You determine your own level of involvement.....

Its only as expensive as you make it out to be.</TD></TR></TABLE>

correction: it is expensive in direct relation to how competitive you want to be.

 

being competitive in ITC is a lot cheaper than being competitive in ITS.

 

of course, i was just being difficult.

 

Oh Boy! Let's have this one again!

Scott, who looked at that pic of that semi-famous super-fast guy's old CRX and thought "there but for the grace of God go I"...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RR98ITR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Oh Boy! Let's have this one again!

Scott, who looked at that pic of that semi-famous super-fast guy's old CRX and thought "there but for the grace of God go I"...</TD></TR></TABLE>

Then again, racing is really affordable if your car never comes off of jackstands in the garage

 

No matter what... competitive or not, it will cost you money... I cannot see a 10 race season costing less than $5K.

The issue is that you need to be smart about which class you race:

Do you pick Spec Miata because the car is easy on brakes, tires, engine parts and the competition is there? Or do you stay away from Spec Miata because body damage is highly probably? This probably can be said about IT racing, also? Or do you pick Honda Challenge where the body damage is minimal but there may not be high numbers of racers (depending on region)?

 

Bah, racing is cheap, I heard somewhere it only costs 7k to be competetive in Spec Miata ... now where did I hear that number???

to the O.P., some groups do Time Trials and Drivers Education events in one - a group around here, Tarheel Sports Car Club/Triangle Z Car Club, has in essence a DE from 8AM to 3PM and then TT for participants in Solo I legal cars. It doesn't have to be as expensive or intensive as Club Racing but does give you a comparative for lap times and personal & auto improvement. You might want to look into Solo I in your area. Many folks do these events driving to and fro as I believe the major requirements are fire protection and roll _bar_.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Then again, racing is really affordable if your car never comes off of jackstands in the garage </TD></TR></TABLE>

Hah! You might think so...but think again.

When you do it like I do it's Really Expensive.

Scott, who's in that moment just past the moment where I think I'm just so smart...you know, the moment when I realize that No, I'm not.

 

Club racing will make you a better driver...sort of.

You can a super fast tt or hpde driver. Yes, you will drive or strive to drive the perfect line for each corner. You may even play with different enty & exit, throttle postition, etc. Being a hpde or tt driver will make you a better driver on the street. You learn car control & the limits of the vehicle.

W-2-W will make you faster & better. Why??? You will take what you have learned...and take it a step further. You will learn to pass offline. You will truely learn what threshold braking is. If you don't have it now, you will learn situational awareness. I have experienced, and seen it, myself. The step up, for most people, from hpde to w-2-w is a big step!

As far as spending more $$. Yes, it will typically cost more money to race. Besides the support cost of truck, trailer, etc, there is the very real cost of car damage. Do you have to spend a ton of money to be competitive? Not always. As stated above, if you pick your class carefully, you can have fun on a budget.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by davidnyc &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">No matter what... competitive or not, it will cost you money... I cannot see a 10 race season costing less than $5K.

The issue is that you need to be smart about which class you race:

Do you pick Spec Miata because the car is easy on brakes, tires, engine parts and the competition is there? Or do you stay away from Spec Miata because body damage is highly probably? This probably can be said about IT racing, also? Or do you pick Honda Challenge where the body damage is minimal but there may not be high numbers of racers (depending on region)?

</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yep. All that sounds about right. Even if you can get a budget car and keep it in one piece, there are plenty of ongoing costs related to racing. Tires, brakes, entry fees, hotel, gas, food, etc...

I'm at the point of having the car but still need the driver gear and license (I'll be running ITA next year). I know it'll cost me $$ and we (my wife and I) have budgeted for it

Christian, who has an idea of how much racing might cost but won't know until next year

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by phat-S &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Bah, racing is cheap, I heard somewhere it only costs 7k to be competetive in Spec Miata ... now where did I hear that number???

to the O.P., some groups do Time Trials and Drivers Education events in one - a group around here, Tarheel Sports Car Club/Triangle Z Car Club, has in essence a DE from 8AM to 3PM and then TT for participants in Solo I legal cars. It doesn't have to be as expensive or intensive as Club Racing but does give you a comparative for lap times and personal & auto improvement. You might want to look into Solo I in your area. Many folks do these events driving to and fro as I believe the major requirements are fire protection and roll _bar_.</TD></TR></TABLE>

i hope you aren't referring to me. i never said it would take 7k to be competitive. you can certainly build a car for that, but to be competitive will cost you 12-15k.

 

My own experience, racing a 1995 Integra GS-R with NASA Honda Challenge H3 (and, presumably, lagging around the back of an SCCA ITS field):

$1,000 a weekend is the going rate. This includes your money to tow, fuel costs, food costs, entry fee...everything. This does NOT include costs for something that breaks, for you running into/over something (ask me how I know), any other unwelcome surprises. I'd say budget $1,000 but *expect* more like $1500. More if you run into something.

IMVHO, it can be worth the added expense, IF you want to test yourself against the best. If you don't care how you compare against the impossibly talented guys then it honestly might not be for you.

For me, while I realize I'm not a prodigy, I think I'm okay. And I'd like to see where I stand, as cheaply as possible. This is why I switched to driving someone else's ITC car.

One closing comment - since it's slow and cheap to run, driving Catch 22's ITC car as a rental is not only making me a better driver, it's costing me less in so doing. Something to think about. Arrive and Drive = goodness...

 

There is a huge difference between DE and wheel to wheel. Competion. DE's are fun and all but they do not give you much to base how good a driver you actually are or how good your equipment is as you can prep what ever part of your car you would like. Racing you have to prep to the rules. It is a big step up but once you have made it it is so worth it.

If you are going to race on a budget come and talk to me at the next ECHC event. H4/ITA or H5/ITB/ITC are the way to go. Cars are cheap as are parts. The initial investment into racing is the killer part. Most people make the big mistake of building their first racecar and kill far too much time getting ready to race rather then racing. You are best off buying someone elses car that has a been raced and has a log book. Sure it might not be exactly what you want but you can make the needed tweeks as you go along but you can go racing.

I know people think I'm nuts for saying this and actually doing this but a tow vehicle and trailer are not needed. I have been driving my racecar to the every event this season with two exceptions where I paid someone else to transport my car cuase it was a long trip and the deal was too sweet. I have reduced my budget so much by doing this. My H5 car gets around 35mpg plus on the highway in comparison to under 10 for most trucks that are towing. Since it's a hatch I can fit a lot of gear inside of it. You would be supprised what you do not actually need to bring with you to a race. Two sets of tires, tool box, spare parts, box of assorted crap, jack, jackstands, sleeping bag, mat, chair, bike, gear bag and overnight bag all fit in my hatch with room to spare.

No matter how you cut it racing is expensive but it can be done on a budget, fun can be had and one can be competitive.

Z

 

DEs are fun if you don't care about being in a competition and don't mind occassionaly following an asshat in a 330whp Civic around for 3 laps.

Racing is all you. You dont wait for a point by and a lift to pass, you set it up and make it happen.

Racing is going to be more expensive than DE if you choose to be competitive. Its harder on the car and there is more chance of damage.
And I agree with the statement about racing just for fun. I personally don't get that either. If I didn't care about the competition and winning, I'd just do DEs and not worry about the extra expense and dealing with a rule book.

At the end of the day its all about your goals, desires, and financial status.
If you want to race but don't have alot of money, ITB, ITC or H5.
If you can afford it and want to go 140+ mph - H1, H2, ITS.
If you want HUGE amounts of competition, and can afford it... Spec Miata
If you REALLY have the cash - Grand Am Cup or SWC.
If you don't really care and just like to drive, just DE and stay out of my way. I'm trying to win a race .

And it is true. My ITC car cost several hundred less per weekend than my old H3/ITS Integra. Less tire wear, less brake wear, less gas, and parts are generally cheaper.
The car itself also cost about 1/2 as much to build as the Integra.

 

Something nobody has said explicitly, but have alluded to...

Racing a cheap, slowish car can be less expensive than HPDEing an expensive trailer queen. Once your track car gets to the point that it's just a track car, lives on a trailer, and has zero resale value (because you've added a cage and removed the AC and interior), you may as well go racing, if that's what you want to do.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tnord &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

i hope you aren't referring to me. i never said it would take 7k to be competitive. you can certainly build a car for that, but to be competitive will cost you 12-15k.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Doesn't it really depend on how many crate motors you have to buy each year - hehehe I know - my time is coming!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">DEs are fun if you don't care about being in a competition and don't mind occassionaly following an asshat in a 330whp Civic around for 3 laps.

Racing is all you. You dont wait for a point by and a lift to pass, you set it up and make it happen.

Racing is going to be more expensive than DE if you choose to be competitive. Its harder on the car and there is more chance of damage.
And I agree with the statement about racing just for fun. I personally don't get that either. If I didn't care about the competition and winning, I'd just do DEs and not worry about the extra expense and dealing with a rule book.

At the end of the day its all about your goals, desires, and financial status.
If you want to race but don't have alot of money, ITB, ITC or H5.
If you can afford it and want to go 140+ mph - H1, H2, ITS.
If you want HUGE amounts of competition, and can afford it... Spec Miata
If you REALLY have the cash - Grand Am Cup or SWC.
If you don't really care and just like to drive, just DE and stay out of my way. I'm trying to win a race .

</TD></TR></TABLE>

This was an excellent description!

 

Hey -

Another option that you could consider for easing the transition is Time Trials if anyone in your region offers such a program (mostly NASA although the SCCA is waking up and getting on board).

I would love to do W2W eventually although I'm unsure if it would be in my Miata or an ITB/C car. I've ran the numbers, cut them in half, and still almost gave my wife a heart attack. So unfortunately W2W is still a bit down the road for me.

In the meantime, however, I have been having a blast with time trials. It is much more strategy oriented than just open lapping because you have to focus on getting a clear track/fast lap. Usually the groups that do this have open passing so you also get a taste for that and traffic management. The wear and tear on the car isn't as great because you don't have to push it the whole session and don't have to go door-to-door with someone.

If you do time trials or stay in the upper levels of HPDE I would still urge you to consider safety - once you're at this level you do need a plan for a complete safety package (suit, extinguisher, head/neck, etc) - I'm phasing this in over time.

After having a taste of competitive driving thru time trials, I can totally see where W2W would be addictive and open tracking just wouldn't be the same.

Good luck,

- Mark

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">And I agree with the statement about racing just for fun. I personally don't get that either. If I didn't care about the competition and winning, I'd just do DEs and not worry about the extra expense and dealing with a rule book.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I race just for fun. I have no aspirations to be top of my class. I aspire to solid mid-pack, maybe upper mid-pack one day.

Instead of trying for the 1st, I try for "better than my last race". I like the challenge of passing, and being passed cleanly. I like the challenge of learning how to race, and improving my skills.

Am I compeditive? Sure, I want to get past the guy in front of me, but I understand that that guy is never going to be the current race leader.

Why do I have such "low" aspirations? Well, I run in a combined class of 45+ Miatas (SM and SSM). There are a lot of really good drivers in those classes in the North East. I can hold my own, but as Rice said, I'm no prodigy. I'm also not interested in getting into the politics of running up front... the different car builders laying into each other through protests and such. I'll stick with working on my own car (with Jason) and suggestions from friends that run in the class. I'm not interested in aligning myself with a builder, or in "building" my engine to get every last half a horsepower. In short, I don't want to spend the money.

Which brings us back to "doing it for fun", not for a podium finish.

Diane ~ who loves w2w racing and does it for FUN.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Markus &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Hey -

Another option that you could consider for easing the transition is Time Trials if anyone in your region offers such a program (mostly NASA although the SCCA is waking up and getting on board).
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Huh?
SCCA was doing time trials before NASA existed. It used to be called Solo I.
Your region might not do it, but its been around for about 50 years.
If your local SCCA region isn't doing this, get involved and help get it started. The program exists and has existed for a long time.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by r2x &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Diane ~ who loves w2w racing and does it for FUN.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

You are not the driver I'm referring to.
I'm talking about the guy/gal who is consistently wayyyyyyyyy off the pace (either due to lack of talent or car or both) and is sometimes a general menace because they are just plain old in the way.
Fun? For who?

I will never understand this. I'm not wired to be able to understand this. How can this possibly be "fun?" I know that its certainly NOT fun for the pack of leaders coming up behind this guy (again) and hoping to god he knows you're there.
Sure, everyone has a *right* to be out there, but I just don't get the "why?" Is it so you can tell your friends you're a "racer?"

There are just lots of other options out there. DE, Time Trials, Autocross....
Racing is just too dangerous to be piddling around out there.
JMO

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">At the end of the day its all about your goals, desires, and financial status.
If you want to race but don't have alot of money, ITB, ITC or H5.
If you can afford it and want to go 140+ mph - H1, H2, ITS.
If you want HUGE amounts of competition, and can afford it... Spec Miata
If you REALLY have the cash - Grand Am Cup or SWC.
If you don't really care and just like to drive, just DE and stay out of my way. I'm trying to win a race .
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I notice that ITA is nowhere to be seen in your breakdown of racing, so let me add it in there for ya:

If can't afford to go 140mph, but would like to break 75mph in the straights (and therefore not fall asleep ) and enjoy a boat load of competition with very varied types of cars - ITA, H4

 

Scott... I totally agree with you on the backmarker thing. It can't be *real* fun for anyone. That person should go back to DEs to get faster, then try the racing thing again.

Slow is dangerous. Clueless is even more dangerous. Combine them and you have real trouble.