What has been your experience with such?

 

I've never done it, but one of the engineers at Nissan who also writes for Sport Compact Car swears by it. And a fellow Bonneville racer/aerospace engineer pal of mine just bought a Cryo treatment business. You can read his stuff at http://www.nwcryo.com/. Obviously he's got reason to be biased, but I've known Mike long enough to know he doesn't invest in snake oil...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Black R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What has been your experience with such?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I know a guy who had this done with a final drive. Well, is REM polishing the same as shotpeening? The guy who did it for him did all sorts of the same stuff for NASCAR teams and claimed a small reduction in friction losses...the main thing going for it if I remember correctly was that the polishing reduced heat buildup.

Is this sort of thing IT legal? Might be something for me to research before I put the 4.30 together...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RacerBowie &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
is REM polishing the same as shotpeening? ...</TD></TR></TABLE>
Here is what I've seen about REM. These folks carry a lot of credibility in the open wheel racing world.
http://www.taylor-race.com/isotropic.cfm

 

I had my FD cryo treated before installing. ALot of s2k owners with aftermarket gears complain of whining sounds and other weird noises, i don't have any. is that due to the cryo treating, i have no clue.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Nishant &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">ALot of s2k owners with aftermarket gears complain of whining sounds and other weird noises</TD></TR></TABLE>

Sounds like they're not being set up properly.

 

I had my FD cryoed. Pretty inexpensive and worth the shot. It's been good so far. That being said, I've never broke any gears in any of my car ever.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
The best way to imagine Cryo-treating:
"Picture a busy mall with people walking around everywhere, some spots are more crowded than others. The people represent the molecules and the spaces in between them represent weekness in the metel. When the metal is slowly cooled you gather all those people and group them together as close as possible. When the metal is heated, imagine the people grouped together each taking one step outward away from each other, all of them together and in unison until they cover the mall end to end. Now all the molecules are evenly spaced, there are no weak spots, heat dissipates faster, etc. By Cryo-treating you create a more uniform molecular struture therefore creating stronger metal."</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Black R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What has been your experience with such?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I have plenty of experience with shot-peening. At Robinson Helicopter, we shot-peened every fatigue critical part and we found that the fatigue life always increased by 60% or more. For gears, the root (or base of the tooth) is a fatigue critical area and shot-peening would help if you're are trying to put much more power through the gearbox than was intended by the manufacturer. However, if you are running a stock engine, I don't think you have to worry about shot-peening.

Cryo treatment is different than shot-peening in that a microstructural change occurs in treated parts. Without getting too technical, a larger percentage of martensitic (and less of austenitic) is formed. Martensitic structure is harder and more wear resistant than the austenitic structure. After the cryo treatment, the part needs to be stress-relieved. Note, the cryo treatment is done in addition to the regular heat-treatment.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RacerBowie &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Is this sort of thing IT legal? Might be something for me to research before I put the 4.30 together...</TD></TR></TABLE>

Original poster, if you feel this is hijacking your thread, let me know and I will make a new thread about this....

Ok, I did a little reading, and now I am even more confused....

The ITCS doesn't seem to mention anything at all about stuff like this. The only relevant stuff I can find is:
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">17.1.4.D.4
a "Any final drive ratio is permitted provided it fits the stock differential/transaxle housing without modification to the housing."

b "Any limited slip or locked differential is permitted."

c "No alteration to the stock transmission gear ratios for the make, model, type, and engine size of automobile is allowed."</TD></TR></TABLE>

I "think" this means one could do any of this to a final drive, as "Any final drive ratio is permitted". I don't think you could do this to the actual gears in the transmission, though. ????

Also of interest is the following:

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">17.1.4.D.1.q "The application and/or use of any painting, coating, plating, or impregnating substance (ie:anti-friction, thermal barrier, oil shedding coatings, chrome, anodizing, etc.) to any internal engine surface, including intake manifold internal surface, is prohibited."</TD></TR></TABLE>

While this doesn't specifically say you can't do stuff like cryo and shotpeening, I think it brings it into the "If it doesn't say you can, you can't" category, at least when you are dealing with engine internals.

Dr. K, a "Rules Nerd" interpretation would be very welcome here.

 

The rules specifically state that cannot "add" such and such coatings. It doesn't talk about heat treatment or surface treatment, which is what cryo and S-P accomplish. Thus, I believe it's legal.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Johnny Mac &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">After the cryo treatment, the part needs to be stress-relieved...</TD></TR></TABLE>
At the risk of pissing off someone with more post-graduate degrees than me, that's not really true. A proper cryo treatment is in itself a stress relieving procedure. Once the metal is chilled, it is brought back up to temperature very slowly over an extended period of time. The thicker the material, the longer it takes. Sometimes nearly all day. That, according to my cryo guy, fully relieves the material. Incidentally, he also says it is the lack of this gradual stress relieving process that puts most OEM replacement brake rotors under so much static stress and why they warp so easily. Once relieved, he says, the rotors will work normally without trying to find a happy place the first time they get really hot. All of this pales in comparison, though, to the life changing durability he says the process adds to to his razor blades and copper MIG welder tips...

 

you guys are ignoring the most important unwritten rule in the GCR.

if you can't prove i did it, then it's legal.

balance and blueprinting are illegal in SM. but even when it is done, you can't prove it, so a lot of people do it. people that admit to doing it have been torn down at ARRC to be found legal. same deal here.

"that is the prettiest, most perfect factory engine i've ever seen. but it's within factory tolerances, so it's legal." says the tech inspector.

 

(continuing the hijack)

Munch on THIS one:

I saw an ad in my latest Grasroots Motorsports from a well-known SM shop. Apparently they just started offering REM treatment. I have heard (a rumor, of course) that they did indeed purchase the equipment.

Sorry I don't have any help on legality or usefulness....but this particular shop is known for turning out top-notch (and legal) SM cars, and as I understand it they're pretty much swamped with SM work right now.....

Draw the conclusions you wish.

Jarrod

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bluegsr &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">(continuing the hijack)

Munch on THIS one:

I saw an ad in my latest Grasroots Motorsports from a well-known SM shop. Apparently they just started offering REM treatment. I have heard (a rumor, of course) that they did indeed purchase the equipment.

Sorry I don't have any help on legality or usefulness....but this particular shop is known for turning out top-notch (and legal) SM cars, and as I understand it they're pretty much swamped with SM work right now.....

Draw the conclusions you wish.

Jarrod</TD></TR></TABLE>

I started a thread on this on the IT.com forum, and the general consensus there was that it IS legal for Final Drive gears, and probably IS NOT legal for transmission gears.

I will be doing the REM/cryo deal on my next rear gear, I think.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tnord &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">you guys are ignoring the most important unwritten rule in the GCR.

if you can't prove i did it, then it's legal.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah, so's murder. What's your street address?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by thawley &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Yeah, so's murder. What's your street address?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Send him to the cryo chamber!

This is only hearsay, but I've been told that cryo treating rotors can actually reduce durability. The newly formed martenisitic structure is more brittle than the original molecular structure, and is more conducive to microcrack propagation than before. However, a proper heat treatment should reduce grain size compared to the original microstructure, and they are still annealed, correct?

If it isn't obvious, I'm not a materials guy. Or a material girl. Sorry.

 

not sure how this will apply to road racing but from drag racing experience here is what we have learned

we have never done it to our gearsets but have talked to other honda teams that have tried cryo'ing their gears - remember these are over 700 whp drag cars that bang through the gears in less than 9 seconds

with no cryo treating, teams would get about 2-4 passes out of a tranny before failure - with cryo treating they would get 7-8 passes out of a tranny before failure

if you consider the extreme abuse of pushing that much power through the transmission and consider the lower power of your cars in theory and based on this testing they would hold up quite a bit longer for a car that is road raced

we make just over 700 whp in our car - we run oem transmissions, no cryo, no treatment, nothing with the exception of a spool instead of the stock or aftermarket diff - the most important thing we have found to increase the longevity of the transmission is to completely tear it down and build it dead on factory specs as far as clearance, torque, etc, etc - taking a little extra time to put it together correctly gets us a lot more passes out of the transmission before failure

another example is john shepard and his mid 8 second talon - he is known for some of the sickest DSM trannies around - from what i know for the most part the parts in his transmissions builds for street type low 10 second DSM's involved all factory parts just torn down and assembled with care - i am sure he had a lot of trial and error to figure out exactly what specs to build them to but they work hella good...

...just my $.02

james innes

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by thawley &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Yeah, so's murder. What's your street address?</TD></TR></TABLE>

can you come up with a more obscure and worthless analogy?

fact of the matter is, people do it, it's legal, and it makes them faster. if you don't do it, you'll be behind in prep, how much is up for debate however.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tnord &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">can you come up with a more obscure and worthless analogy?</TD></TR></TABLE>
My point was aimed at your sweeping generalization that anything is okay as long as you don't get caught.

While cryo may or may not be legal, your attitude toward rules is what really sucks. For that matter, your attitude toward people, too. This board is full of bright, enthusiastic people with a love for motorsports and road racing. Again and again, your language here projects an air that anyone who does not think the same way you do is a dumb-****. Get some therapy. Or at the very least, learn some manners. No sense writing further, though. I know you're just going to respond with some insults or reasons why I've got it all wrong. I know you'll be right. After all, you always are...

1-800-GET-HELP

 

I think what he was trying to say, rather than if you dont get caught, is that if whatever you've done fits the letter of the rulebook and meets whatever specs/rules are written, then its legal - whether its within the spirit of the rules or not. Like the engine "balancing" in SM by using sets of matched parts, or the cam gear adjustments, or the AFM adjustments, or....

 

You are right for the majority of cryo treaters. However, some other cryo treatment facilities do a post stress relief or heat treatment because matensite microstructure is brittle. In addition, some different materials need a different process due to the microstructure involved. For example, titanium does not form a martensite structure (since it is non-ferrous) and the process for titanium is different.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by thawley &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
At the risk of pissing off someone with more post-graduate degrees than me, that's not really true. A proper cryo treatment is in itself a stress relieving procedure. Once the metal is chilled, it is brought back up to temperature very slowly over an extended period of time. The thicker the material, the longer it takes. Sometimes nearly all day. That, according to my cryo guy, fully relieves the material. Incidentally, he also says it is the lack of this gradual stress relieving process that puts most OEM replacement brake rotors under so much static stress and why they warp so easily. Once relieved, he says, the rotors will work normally without trying to find a happy place the first time they get really hot. All of this pales in comparison, though, to the life changing durability he says the process adds to to his razor blades and copper MIG welder tips...</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

Learn something new everyday...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by thawley &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
My point was aimed at your sweeping generalization that anything is okay as long as you don't get caught.

While cryo may or may not be legal, your attitude toward rules is what really sucks. For that matter, your attitude toward people, too. This board is full of bright, enthusiastic people with a love for motorsports and road racing. Again and again, your language here projects an air that anyone who does not think the same way you do is a dumb-****. Get some therapy. Or at the very least, learn some manners. No sense writing further, though. I know you're just going to respond with some insults or reasons why I've got it all wrong. I know you'll be right. After all, you always are...

1-800-GET-HELP</TD></TR></TABLE>

you misinterpret my statement. just because you don't get caught cheating doesn't really make it ok.

but if you're making changes on the car against the intent of the rules, get torn down, and are found to be legal by technical inspectors, are you really cheating? if you think that this is cheating, that's fine, it's a personal opinion, but the fact of the matter is you will be behind in car prep. i'm not being a know-it-all, it's the reality of racing. always has been, always will be.

for example........in the SM rules, it states that "any machining, balancing, blueprinting, etc etc which in anyway may increase performance is forbidden and so on." now, you can go have sunbelt massage your engine to the tune of $4k plus the cost of the $2k crate motor you just sent them. this will net you about 5hp or so over a typical crate motor. what are they doing to make this 5hp? nobody knows for sure, but i can say with 99.9% certainty that parts-bin-blueprinting is on the list. people who admit to having engines from these guys have had complete tear-downs at the ARRC race, and found to be within compliance of the rules. now you tell me, is this motor illegal? if it is, how do you know? how do you check? how do you penalize someone who is within all factory listed tolerances?


Modified by tnord at 11:02 PM 8/25/2005

 

They are probably loosening the bearing clearances in both rods and mains to the largest factory tolerance and then they are dynamically balancing the rest to the motor. Looser bearing clearances (all else being equal), up to a point, reap a bhp increase due to decreased shear stress in the oil (tau at the wall = dynamic viscosity*velocity of outside shaft/clearance) So, up to point where this tau formula still holds, there is lower wall shear stress in the bearing. Multiply this by the total number of bearings and you have a hp increase. I would mention that a larger clearance that the optimum would start causing other problems (oil separation, ect.) with the shear stress and then as a result, the hp would actual decrease.

Balancing can reap hp gains also, and help reliability. Since an out of balance recipocating system induces other retarding forces i.e. friction, by simply balancing the engine moving components including the reciprocating parts can be worth a couple of hp in a small 1.6 liter motor such as the Miata.

Is this legal, not by the letter of the rules, but the motor can still be legal since it has the factory parts. Who is to say that the factory didn't install these other bearings?


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tnord &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

you misinterpret my statement. just because you don't get caught cheating doesn't really make it ok.

but if you're making changes on the car against the intent of the rules, get torn down, and are found to be legal by technical inspectors, are you really cheating? if you think that this is cheating, that's fine, it's a personal opinion, but the fact of the matter is you will be behind in car prep. i'm not being a know-it-all, it's the reality of racing. always has been, always will be.

for example........in the SM rules, it states that "any machining, balancing, blueprinting, etc etc which in anyway may increase performance is forbidden and so on." now, you can go have sunbelt massage your engine to the tune of $4k plus the cost of the $2k crate motor you just sent them. this will net you about 5hp or so over a typical crate motor. what are they doing to make this 5hp? nobody knows for sure, but i can say with 99.9% certainty that parts-bin-blueprinting is on the list. people who admit to having engines from these guys have had complete tear-downs at the ARRC race, and found to be within compliance of the rules. now you tell me, is this motor illegal? if it is, how do you know? how do you check? how do you penalize someone who is within all factory listed tolerances?


Modified by tnord at 11:02 PM 8/25/2005</TD></TR></TABLE>