Usually, I am a huge proponent of In-Car instruction, but I am pondering a different idea for something I am working on.

My wife has decided she is ready to start pushing harder on track, with an eye toward getting her SCCA license in the next couple of years. We had already decided that her next event would be in my ITA car, as I am unable to keep up 2 separate track cars at this point.

She has driven 5 weekend events so far, for a total of 10 days on track. She has only run a handful of laps "Solo", usually preferring her instructors to stay with her if given the option. She started off with some confidence issues, but was driving pretty well at her last couple of events (keeping up with/passing much faster cars).

Now that she will be in the racecar I am faced with a dilemma: Do I put a passenger seat in it and make up a quieter exhaust so that she can continue to have in-car instruction, or do I leave it alone and make her have to be solo or have a lead-follow instructor?

Thoughts?

 

If she's planning to get a license. Ween her now.
5 events with someone in the right seat is plenty. You know this.

 

I'll put my $.02 in about lead-follow laps being very conducive to correctly learning the line (so long as you're following someone who knows it )

When I went through time trial school, our first session on track was lead-follow with the instructor leading, building increasing speed per lap, though only up to about 5/10's speed. Being able to see the car in front of you and match it's line was incredibly helpful. Gave me a better base to work with the next time out when the instructor kept yelling "Over there, over there!!" I knew what he meant.

 

What got me up to speed in a race car was the ability to ride with an instructor in his race car. We did lead/follow for a couple of sessions, but I wasn't "getting it".

I had a fair amount of track time in my street car at Road Atlanta having done some DE events, but once I got into a race car I drove it like the street car. Drove decent lines, instructors pleased with my progress, but didn't "get it" when it came time to flog a race car.

Thanks to Alan Haggai and a few laps around Road Atlanta at speed in his old ITC Honda, a very, very, big light bulb came on and I quickly found the speed I was looking for. Had the old nasty blue ITB 200SX I drove back then every which way but straight from then on.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If she's planning to get a license. Ween her now.
5 events with someone in the right seat is plenty. You know this.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I guess my question is more do I do a "slow" weening, or a "sink or swim".

Her newfound confidence her last couple of events, combined with her ability to handle traffic that was developed when her confidence was non-existant, made it quite apparent that she can be good at this sport. I would hate to screw that up by tossing her in the deep end if she can't handle it. BUT, if she can handle it, she will learn a lot faster that way...

 

If she sinks you can always back up.

But I'm betting she'll be OK. The ladies are often better than us guys in the early stages because they don't let machismo get in the way. As long as they have the confidence and aggression (which is what females tend to lack in this sport) they tend to learn and progress very well.

A couple of years ago Renee was Shultz's student at a DE. Now she's coaching him sometimes.
Don't sell Sarah short. She can probably handle it, and as you said will learn much faster once you cut her loose.

 

"Sink or swim".

Went to Drivers School and there was a woman there, who by her husband's admission, drove very well and encouraged her to move on up from driving solo/DE events.
Once she went swimming in the race car she quickly learned it was not for her and was going to go back to what she had been doing. She turned some pretty good lap times BTW.

 

Obviously I don't know her as well as you do, but I wouldn't rule out the right seat just yet. I'd put one in, but maybe try lead-follow for let's say a day at her next DE. If the first few sessions work out, take the seat out. If she seems overwhelmed, and/or is slower than she was the last time she was at a given track, get someone in the car.

 

if she doesn't have it after 5 events, she may not get it. as has been said, she shouldn't need much in-car instruction any longer aside from maybe being teaught the line somewhere.

what i'd do?
have a spare seat handy for those tracks which she doesn't know too well, and toss it in for the event. throwing on a new exhaust is just a waste of time because she doesn't need to hear much any longer.

 

lead follow for NOOBS doesn't work.....they need verbal input....

in your wife's case i don't think there would be an issue with lead-follow....as long as she doesn't get faster than you right


noobs need someone to control them....in my opinion...keep them under wraps

 

Exactly. After 10 days if she still needs someone sitting next to her then she probably is not going to ever have the confidence to be comfortable racing. That person in the passenger seat is just a crutch at this point.
She should have all the basics down by now, unless as mentioned its just a new track and she needs help in simply where to go.

Cut her loose. You can always step back if it doesn't work.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by krshultz &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Obviously I don't know her as well as you do, but I wouldn't rule out the right seat just yet. I'd put one in, but maybe try lead-follow for let's say a day at her next DE. If the first few sessions work out, take the seat out. If she seems overwhelmed, and/or is slower than she was the last time she was at a given track, get someone in the car.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Shultz, you may be hitting it there...the last 2 events, all I have done as her instructor is shout GO GO GO and MORE GAS (well, I did yell BOTH FEET IN once) and there is still time on the table.

I am not so much worried about her packing it up and quitting (well, maybe a little) as I am worried about her not pushing it hard enough. I am about thisclose to renting out Little Talladega and just having her drive the damn thing until she gets tired or the wheels fall off....

 

pushing it hard enough will come with time. once she grows more comortable with the tracks she's on and what the car can and can't do. having someone in the car yelling at her will only help so much, she's the one hitting the pedals.

 

OK so it sounds like the technique is there and she "gets it." Could very well be that she just needs someone to chase in order for her to get to "GAS GAS GAS." What you then have to watch out for is if she overreaches and goes off, spins, something like that. If that happens, and it shatters her confidence, you'll want to be able to put someone back in the car to talk her off that ledge.

JMO.

--Karl, who knows a lot about fragile egos...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by krshultz &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Could very well be that she just needs someone to chase</TD></TR></TABLE>

Bingo.
Renee now hates having someone, especially me, in the passenger seat because she says it adds pressure to perform and not make mistakes. She wants someone to chase or someone to stay in front of. Thats what makes her GO GO GO.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Bingo.
Renee now hates having someone, especially me, in the passenger seat because she says it adds pressure to perform and not make mistakes. She wants someone to chase or someone to stay in front of. Thats what makes her GO GO GO.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I finally started to see that from Sarah at VIR in the CRX. Some dude in a Corvette didn't give her the pass signal coming out of Oak Tree, and instead of her giving the big sigh and pointing the other people behind us by, screwing our chance for a pass, she kept it floored, said "Oh f### you 'vetteboy" and flat wasted him coming out of hogpen!

I think that will be the ticket...get her to some low-key play day and give her some time to get used to the ITA car, then give her someone to chase... I could go out and go just a bit faster each lap until I start to get away...if I can.

 

Another option, if possible, is to put the seat in, let her go solo, but then have her ride along with you or someone to get the "butt feel" if she is having trouble. It really depends on how she learns. My soon to be wife, learns so much from getting the feel from riding with me or someone else. She then has an incredible knack at going back out and applying what she just felt. She has done this at autocrosses and track events. THe last autocross she was just having trouble improving her times. She took one ride with me and her next run, dropped 4 seconds off her previous times. Just another thought.

 

(Danielle here...)
Yet another option is to ask her what she would prefer! Maybe try a lead-follow weekend first (if she hasn't done one yet- thereby possibly saving the extra seat purchase too)- certainly she'll have an opinion after that.
I've had instruction both ways- personally I am still where I would rather have my instructor in-car with me. I don't feel that I've gotten as much out of sessions doing lead-follow at this point in time. In time I plan to go that route- I've had a bit more track time than your wife, and at one point in time was licensed (one race...decided I was not ready). I hope to start driving again next year (we've been building a new car this year so 2005 didn't work out as planned) when I am ready I will opt for lead-follow..I'm not there yet though. I can do it- but still feel that I'm getting more w/ instructor in car- even though admittedly I do tend to make more errors with someone else in the car- like be evil to the tranny (as Scott/Renee can atest to after last year @ RA ) but over-all I still feel like I learn more w/ an instructor in-car with me at this point in time.
I think the only person who can answer your question is your wife- and the only way she'll know is by trying both methods.
As far as the in-car exhaust thing- if she still wants in-car instructing, instead of "silencing the car via exhaust" get the driver/passenger communication- our racecar is loud as crap & I had no problems at all hearing my instructor when using it.
It was whatever Renee/Scott has that worked the best of the systems I've used...and Renee is the best instructor I've ever had btw!



Modified by Lyonel 13H4 at 9:47 PM 8/23/2005

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RacerBowie &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Usually, I am a huge proponent of In-Car instruction, but I am pondering a different idea for something I am working on.

My wife has decided she is ready to start pushing harder on track, with an eye toward getting her SCCA license in the next couple of years. ... Do I put a passenger seat in it and make up a quieter exhaust so that she can continue to have in-car instruction, or do I leave it alone and make her have to be solo or have a lead-follow instructor?

Thoughts?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Don't push, let her find the speed in her own time. If she wants the seat and you don't mind putting the seat in, then do it. Even with a Chatterbox system, I found it difficult to communicate with a student in my ITA car, and I have a relatively quite exhaust... 90 dba. So it might wind up being very little communication afterall.

If having a passenger makes her feel confortable then do it. If for no other reason then for you to be able to take her around at the speed your comfortable driving the car, then perhaps this will make the biggest impression and give her the confidence to go faster. Passenger or not.

Also, in considering all this, one other question popped into my mind... Has she been driving on street tires or R-compound tires? I think you see where I'm going with this.

I agree with Scott, that an "instructor" at some point can be a crutch, but instead of "taking away" the crutch I'm tending to lean towards building her confidence and allowing her to make the decision.

Don't rule out your "gut" feeling.

 

put a camera in the car for the next few DE's and coach that way. it would cost you the same as another race seat/belts, and would benefit you as well if you don't already have one.

 

Personally, I think lead-follow is a horrible idea for non-advanced drivers. I've seen it on track and it's ugly most of the time. In race groups and instructor groups, it works for learning the line, but lacks the feel and communication needed to learn driving skills.

Five weekends is still relatively few weekends - she may need an instructor for new tracks, or that first event each Spring.

So my vote is to install a 2nd set of safety gear and a cheap muffler. $500 for a Kirkey seat and harness is pretty cheap in the overall scheme of things.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by emwavey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I agree with Scott, that an "instructor" at some point can be a crutch, but instead of "taking away" the crutch I'm tending to lean towards building her confidence and allowing her to make the decision.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

my crutch was yanked out too early...I think if I'd had a few more weekends (and not had my first race at Road Atlanta, where at the time I had zero track time at RA, a 15 min practice session to learn the track before the race, and was running an enduro with 71 other cars)...I'd be racing now.
I didn't 100% think I was ready at that event...but Lyonel was certian I was ("I just needed to get out there.") He and I learn different... going out too soon w/o the confidence set me back some. Long of the short of it is everything needs to be her call.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Lyonel 13H4 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">(Danielle here...)
Yet another option is to ask her what she would prefer! </TD></TR></TABLE>

Now I've heard a lot of crazy talk in this forum, but don't go trying to ruin thread. Ash her what whe would prefer? Pshaw! You CAN'T be serious, how the hell would she know what's best for her?

-Chris

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">5 events with someone in the right seat is plenty. You know this.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Mmm....

I don't agree, but that's cool. I think it's more than reasonable, especially learning new tracks, etc. I still (slightly) prefer an instructor at a new track than no instruction at all. I think that a person with 5 events still has a lot to learn from a capable instructor with 30 or 300 events.

Lead follow is cool, too, if you work out the details with the leader ahead of time, I've only had this once.

-Chris

 

After 10 days on track, if she's "getting it" her instructor probably isn't saying much. And if the instructor isn't saying much, then he/she is nothing but ballast.

Asking her what she wants may sound like a no brainer, but it isn't as simple as that. Renee *thought* she wanted me (or Karl or whoever) in the car with her until she drove without anyone. Then she realized she was more relaxed, faster, and having more fun.

So asking the person isn't necessarily the ticket. Someone can't know what they don't know.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Lyonel 13H4 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">(Danielle here...)
and Renee is the best instructor I've ever had btw!
</TD></TR></TABLE>

And Renee was instructing after her 5th weekend on track.
Now, she was also a nationally competitive autocrosser, the Atlanta Region Driver of the Year, an autocross school instructor, yada yada... My point is that gobs of seat time on track isn't always the answer to every question.
Yes, I know not everyone is Renee (not even me, she certainly learned faster than I did), but if Sarah is running down Corvettes in hogpen, the instructor is mostly silent, and she's thinking about a W2W license...
Cut her loose and see what she does. You might be surprised.

Scott, who at one point was a 3 time divisional solo I champ, had every track record in the southeast, and found myself getting beat by my novice permit holding girlfriend in my own car (yes, I pulled it out of my *** on the last run).
Don't sell the ladies short until you see what they can do. They often learn this stuff quicker and better than us guys.