Be Droopy -- Don't Get Your Bushings in a Bind
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Be Droopy -- Don't Get Your Bushings in a Bind
My car really sucked at at the Sears Point HC Crossover. I did too, but that's a subject for another thread. Among the handful of issues adding its oil-on-Teflon grip levels was binding in the rear suspension and little to no droop travel. A minor issue, perhaps, but I felt like getting this off my chest.
The first cause of the bind was the polyurethane Lower Control Arm bushings. When they were installed (by another party), the center shafts were merely pulled out of the stock rubber bushings, smeared with the special sticky urethane grease and pounded into the poly bushing. It took a pair of Vise-Grips to turn it and a BIG hammer to get out. (I realize there are some who feel urethane LCA bushings are not the way to go, here. But since there are plenty of REALLY fast guys who use them, I decided to try getting them to work instead of immediately jumping to another solution...)
The first step was polishing the shaft (he says with a straight face). The entire OD of the shaft was polished with Scotch-bite and then on the buffing wheel. The stock shaft is not perfectly round, but at least it is now smooth and shiny. Then, at the advice of The Amazing Bernardo, we used moly grease in the bushing/on the shaft instead of the sticky clear crap that comes with the bushings. (I'm very ready for one of you chemists to tell me what an idiot I am, and that I've just given my polyurethane the clap, or whatever. I don't care. I'll be happy to make the poly LCA bushings a regular service item if need be. I'd just like to get the car to stick to the track first.)
The other suspect in our investigation is the SPC rear camber links:
These are neat parts, but the inner mount contains a shaft that is fused in hard rubber. Thing is, there's an angle to the shaft's mounting wholes with respect to the axis of the turnbuckle link. It can be mounted to the chassis side with the other end pointing up (like a stiffy) or pointing down (limpy) and thus give some preload to the LCA one way or the other. Mine were mounted at full stiffy and were inhibiting droop travel. We turned them over, so now they are working the same direction as the rear springs. Duh...
As long as I'm using this as a confessional so others can avoid the same mistakes, I'll also point out that I set the rear toe myself. And a near perfect job I did, too. Barely a 1/64" difference between the leading edge of the rear tires and the trailing edge. Dead nuts, ***** accurate. Did it myself. Trouble was, both rear wheels were pointing a half inch of to the left. (waits for applause to die) This of course explains why everything felt so bitchen in turn one (a banked, up hill left hander) and Soooooo bad on all the right hand stuff like Two and Four.
Ah, well... My goals for the season were to learn about the car and develop my set-up and driving skills. Mission accomplished, so far.
Big thanks to Bernardo for the lessons and the help. Thanks to everyone at Sears who didn't run into me. Thanks to Johnny Mac for the photos. See you at Buttonwillow in Oct.
The first cause of the bind was the polyurethane Lower Control Arm bushings. When they were installed (by another party), the center shafts were merely pulled out of the stock rubber bushings, smeared with the special sticky urethane grease and pounded into the poly bushing. It took a pair of Vise-Grips to turn it and a BIG hammer to get out. (I realize there are some who feel urethane LCA bushings are not the way to go, here. But since there are plenty of REALLY fast guys who use them, I decided to try getting them to work instead of immediately jumping to another solution...)
The first step was polishing the shaft (he says with a straight face). The entire OD of the shaft was polished with Scotch-bite and then on the buffing wheel. The stock shaft is not perfectly round, but at least it is now smooth and shiny. Then, at the advice of The Amazing Bernardo, we used moly grease in the bushing/on the shaft instead of the sticky clear crap that comes with the bushings. (I'm very ready for one of you chemists to tell me what an idiot I am, and that I've just given my polyurethane the clap, or whatever. I don't care. I'll be happy to make the poly LCA bushings a regular service item if need be. I'd just like to get the car to stick to the track first.)
The other suspect in our investigation is the SPC rear camber links:
These are neat parts, but the inner mount contains a shaft that is fused in hard rubber. Thing is, there's an angle to the shaft's mounting wholes with respect to the axis of the turnbuckle link. It can be mounted to the chassis side with the other end pointing up (like a stiffy) or pointing down (limpy) and thus give some preload to the LCA one way or the other. Mine were mounted at full stiffy and were inhibiting droop travel. We turned them over, so now they are working the same direction as the rear springs. Duh...
As long as I'm using this as a confessional so others can avoid the same mistakes, I'll also point out that I set the rear toe myself. And a near perfect job I did, too. Barely a 1/64" difference between the leading edge of the rear tires and the trailing edge. Dead nuts, ***** accurate. Did it myself. Trouble was, both rear wheels were pointing a half inch of to the left. (waits for applause to die) This of course explains why everything felt so bitchen in turn one (a banked, up hill left hander) and Soooooo bad on all the right hand stuff like Two and Four.
Ah, well... My goals for the season were to learn about the car and develop my set-up and driving skills. Mission accomplished, so far.
Big thanks to Bernardo for the lessons and the help. Thanks to everyone at Sears who didn't run into me. Thanks to Johnny Mac for the photos. See you at Buttonwillow in Oct.
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Re: Be Droopy -- Don't Get Your Bushings in a Bind (prkiller)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by prkiller »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Sweet John. Hope things get worked out in time for Willow next month! 
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I'm skipping Willow. Testing this month at Streets and racing the EF again in Oct. at BW. The Willow event is a conflict with the SCTA meet at El Mirage. Gonna try to put the hurt on a couple of land speed records with the new turbo in the Progress car...
PS: John Romero did some serious damage to the H/BFALT record in the AEM Bonneville Civic at Bonneville on Sunday:
Old record: 119.644mph
New record: 195.818
Difference 76.174
That's on 1500cc with a sleeved B16 turbo. I guess that record was a little soft....
</TD></TR></TABLE>I'm skipping Willow. Testing this month at Streets and racing the EF again in Oct. at BW. The Willow event is a conflict with the SCTA meet at El Mirage. Gonna try to put the hurt on a couple of land speed records with the new turbo in the Progress car...
PS: John Romero did some serious damage to the H/BFALT record in the AEM Bonneville Civic at Bonneville on Sunday:
Old record: 119.644mph
New record: 195.818
Difference 76.174
That's on 1500cc with a sleeved B16 turbo. I guess that record was a little soft....
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Re: Be Droopy -- Don't Get Your Bushings in a Bind (thawley)
Thats why you had basically zero droop!! C'mon John, you have soooo many people that could help you with these questions.....before hand. 
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Re: Be Droopy -- Don't Get Your Bushings in a Bind (thawley)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by thawley »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
The first step was polishing the shaft (he says with a straight face).
Thing is, there's an angle to the shaft's mounting wholes with respect to the axis of the turnbuckle link. It can be mounted to the chassis side with the other end pointing up (like a stiffy) or pointing down (limpy) and thus give some preload to the LCA one way or the other. Mine were mounted at full stiffy and were inhibiting droop travel. .Mission accomplished, so far.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
There you guys go talking about shafts, limpy's and stiffy's again
The first step was polishing the shaft (he says with a straight face).
Thing is, there's an angle to the shaft's mounting wholes with respect to the axis of the turnbuckle link. It can be mounted to the chassis side with the other end pointing up (like a stiffy) or pointing down (limpy) and thus give some preload to the LCA one way or the other. Mine were mounted at full stiffy and were inhibiting droop travel. .Mission accomplished, so far.
</TD></TR></TABLE>There you guys go talking about shafts, limpy's and stiffy's again
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Re: Be Droopy -- Don't Get Your Bushings in a Bind (civicrr)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by civicrr »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">C'mon John, you have soooo many people that could help you with these questions.....before hand. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Yeah, but most of them are busy debating H4 Integra throttle body diameters or passing important rules about car number backgrounds...
</TD></TR></TABLE>Yeah, but most of them are busy debating H4 Integra throttle body diameters or passing important rules about car number backgrounds...
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Re: Be Droopy -- Don't Get Your Bushings in a Bind (thawley)
Like you say, mission accomplished.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by thawley »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">That's on 1500cc with a sleeved B16 turbo. I guess that record was a little soft....</TD></TR></TABLE>
Ive had the notion that a sleeved down b16 would be the ideal setup for any H class record...
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by thawley »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">That's on 1500cc with a sleeved B16 turbo. I guess that record was a little soft....</TD></TR></TABLE>
Ive had the notion that a sleeved down b16 would be the ideal setup for any H class record...
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Re: Be Droopy -- Don't Get Your Bushings in a Bind (thawley)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by thawley »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">but the inner mount contains a shaft that is fused in hard rubber.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I could have sworn that mine rotated freely. If I can get my hands on them this weekend (currently off of the car) I will check.
Do you have the hard or soft version?
I could have sworn that mine rotated freely. If I can get my hands on them this weekend (currently off of the car) I will check.
Do you have the hard or soft version?
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Re: Be Droopy -- Don't Get Your Bushings in a Bind (thawley)
See, I told you so. Let it be a lesson to anyone who shows up to the track with a half inch of droop travel. It goes to show you don't need pimpy Koni 3011's to get decent droop travel. Also, I like your nude barbie double amputee hood ornament. And, thanks for the photo credit.
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Re: Be Droopy -- Don't Get Your Bushings in a Bind (thawley)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by thawley »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The first cause of the bind was the polyurethane Lower Control Arm bushings. When they were installed (by another party), the center shafts were merely pulled out of the stock rubber bushings, smeared with the special sticky urethane grease and pounded into the poly bushing. </TD></TR></TABLE>
the poly bushings should have come with its own shaft. you shouldnt have had to reuse the ones removed from the old rubber bushings.
the poly bushings should have come with its own shaft. you shouldnt have had to reuse the ones removed from the old rubber bushings.
Re: Be Droopy -- Don't Get Your Bushings in a Bind (ITAIntegraLS)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ITAIntegraLS »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Just use ure Visa
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Nooooooo............ plastic is evil, paper good....
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Nooooooo............ plastic is evil, paper good....
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Re: Be Droopy -- Don't Get Your Bushings in a Bind (xtrac1)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by xtrac1 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Nooooooo............ plastic is evil, paper good....</TD></TR></TABLE>
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Re: Be Droopy -- Don't Get Your Bushings in a Bind (Johnny Mac)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Johnny Mac »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">See, I told you so. Let it be a lesson to anyone who shows up to the track with a half inch of droop travel. It goes to show you don't need pimpy Koni 3011's to get decent droop travel. Also, I like your nude barbie double amputee hood ornament. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Drooooop Travel?
Joo guys talking about droop travel again?
Every time somebody does it I just cringe.
But I thought about it again and offer this to help:
When we put a car on 4 jackstands, we say the wheels are "at full droop"
But this isn't strictly correct in the context of actual working droop travel.
Droop Travel = the difference between loaded spring height and installed spring height (where installed spring height = free length less preload).
An installation with a long shaft and a short stiff spring is kinda dumb (beyond the limit of use of a helper spring to make changing perch height easier). All that "travel" where the spring is just flopping around isn't "droop travel".
An installation with a short shaft and a long soft spring is more dumber. This is the kind of application within the context of which so much droop travel bullshit is dispensed.
There is a correlation between spring rates and actual working droop travel (and shaft length).
In the most General terms:
Stiff springs = less droop travel = less static deflection = shorter shaft.
Softer springs = more droop travel = more static deflection = longer shaft.
You really shouldn't call it droop travel if it's beyond the range in which the spring is actually pushing the tire into the pavement.
About the only time you could legitimately have a droop travel problem is if you had a butt-load of preload at installation, and very little static deflection. Not that zero-droop isn't a valid approach in some applications. On our cars you can see this being more of a concern at the front than at the rear.
A question that might arise out of this is for a given well thought out application, how much preload is useful? With zero preload the far end of the droop envelope is pretty slow moving - making it useless for maintaining some wheel load. There's something we might more usefully discuss.
Scott, who apologizes to everyone who actually knows all this...
Modified by RR98ITR at 1:18 PM 8/18/2005
Drooooop Travel?
Joo guys talking about droop travel again?
Every time somebody does it I just cringe.
But I thought about it again and offer this to help:
When we put a car on 4 jackstands, we say the wheels are "at full droop"
But this isn't strictly correct in the context of actual working droop travel.
Droop Travel = the difference between loaded spring height and installed spring height (where installed spring height = free length less preload).
An installation with a long shaft and a short stiff spring is kinda dumb (beyond the limit of use of a helper spring to make changing perch height easier). All that "travel" where the spring is just flopping around isn't "droop travel".
An installation with a short shaft and a long soft spring is more dumber. This is the kind of application within the context of which so much droop travel bullshit is dispensed.
There is a correlation between spring rates and actual working droop travel (and shaft length).
In the most General terms:
Stiff springs = less droop travel = less static deflection = shorter shaft.
Softer springs = more droop travel = more static deflection = longer shaft.
You really shouldn't call it droop travel if it's beyond the range in which the spring is actually pushing the tire into the pavement.
About the only time you could legitimately have a droop travel problem is if you had a butt-load of preload at installation, and very little static deflection. Not that zero-droop isn't a valid approach in some applications. On our cars you can see this being more of a concern at the front than at the rear.
A question that might arise out of this is for a given well thought out application, how much preload is useful? With zero preload the far end of the droop envelope is pretty slow moving - making it useless for maintaining some wheel load. There's something we might more usefully discuss.
Scott, who apologizes to everyone who actually knows all this...
Modified by RR98ITR at 1:18 PM 8/18/2005
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From: 15 percent slip, FL, USA
Re: Be Droopy -- Don't Get Your Bushings in a Bind (thawley)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by thawley »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The other suspect in our investigation is the SPC rear camber links:
These are neat parts, but the inner mount contains a shaft that is fused in hard rubber. Thing is, there's an angle to the shaft's mounting wholes with respect to the axis of the turnbuckle link. It can be mounted to the chassis side with the other end pointing up (like a stiffy) or pointing down (limpy) and thus give some preload to the LCA one way or the other. Mine were mounted at full stiffy and were inhibiting droop travel. We turned them over, so now they are working the same direction as the rear springs. Duh...
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I have these, too. If I recall correctly, they work the same way as the stock rubber bushings, where the rubber is bonded to the shaft. If that's the case, they really need to be installed in the stiffy position for the same reason that the FSM specifies that the suspension bolts should only be torqued with the suspension compressed to normal ride height. The stiffy position is closest to the static position. Installing them in the limpy position puts preload on the rubber which causes accelerated wear of the rubber.
These are neat parts, but the inner mount contains a shaft that is fused in hard rubber. Thing is, there's an angle to the shaft's mounting wholes with respect to the axis of the turnbuckle link. It can be mounted to the chassis side with the other end pointing up (like a stiffy) or pointing down (limpy) and thus give some preload to the LCA one way or the other. Mine were mounted at full stiffy and were inhibiting droop travel. We turned them over, so now they are working the same direction as the rear springs. Duh...
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I have these, too. If I recall correctly, they work the same way as the stock rubber bushings, where the rubber is bonded to the shaft. If that's the case, they really need to be installed in the stiffy position for the same reason that the FSM specifies that the suspension bolts should only be torqued with the suspension compressed to normal ride height. The stiffy position is closest to the static position. Installing them in the limpy position puts preload on the rubber which causes accelerated wear of the rubber.
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Re: Be Droopy -- Don't Get Your Bushings in a Bind (RR98ITR)
But some of us use tender springs Scott, and I'm one who uses the Eibach 150 lb/in tenders. I believe in droop control for many reasons which I won't get into here because it is definitely OT.
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From: Snowwhitepillowformybigfathead
Re: Be Droopy -- Don't Get Your Bushings in a Bind (Agent Smith)
Preload Here....Preload There....it's just fuggin Preload Everywhere!
Scott, who "preloads" his lug nutz to 80 ft-lbs....
Scott, who "preloads" his lug nutz to 80 ft-lbs....
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Re: Be Droopy -- Don't Get Your Bushings in a Bind (Agent Smith)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Agent Smith »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
The stiffy position is closest to the static position. Installing them in the limpy position puts preload on the rubber which causes accelerated wear of the rubber.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
And preloads the suspension as well.
The stiffy position is closest to the static position. Installing them in the limpy position puts preload on the rubber which causes accelerated wear of the rubber.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
And preloads the suspension as well.
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From: Snowwhitepillowformybigfathead
Re: Be Droopy -- Don't Get Your Bushings in a Bind (Johnny Mac)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Johnny Mac »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">But some of us use tender springs Scott, and I'm one who uses the Eibach 150 lb/in tenders. I believe in droop control for many reasons which I won't get into here because it is definitely OT.</TD></TR></TABLE>
HOLD ON A MINUTE!!! NOT SO FAST THERE BUDDY!!!
What's this bullshit: "which I wont get into here because it's definitely OT"?
OT? You gotta be kidding. It is in fact The T.
Scott, who insists that Johnny Mac share his filosofy of droop control..."No - I Insist"...<getting Really Insistent>....
HOLD ON A MINUTE!!! NOT SO FAST THERE BUDDY!!!
What's this bullshit: "which I wont get into here because it's definitely OT"?
OT? You gotta be kidding. It is in fact The T.
Scott, who insists that Johnny Mac share his filosofy of droop control..."No - I Insist"...<getting Really Insistent>....
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Re: Be Droopy -- Don't Get Your Bushings in a Bind (RR98ITR)
Scott, if you could only show up to a race once in awhile we could have discussed this stuff in person. As it is, we get to type it out.
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From: Snowwhitepillowformybigfathead
Re: Be Droopy -- Don't Get Your Bushings in a Bind (Johnny Mac)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Johnny Mac »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
And preloads the suspension as well.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Which changes the Moment Center.
Which is connected to the....uhm....nothing...
Scott, who's calling Johnny Mac OUT!
And preloads the suspension as well.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Which changes the Moment Center.
Which is connected to the....uhm....nothing...
Scott, who's calling Johnny Mac OUT!
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Re: Be Droopy -- Don't Get Your Bushings in a Bind (RR98ITR)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RR98ITR »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Which changes the Moment Center.
Which is connected to the....uhm....nothing...
Scott, who's calling Johnny Mac OUT!</TD></TR></TABLE>
No, not again. What did I do to deserve this harsh treatment. But on the other hand, getting called out isn't such a bad thing.
Which changes the Moment Center.
Which is connected to the....uhm....nothing...
Scott, who's calling Johnny Mac OUT!</TD></TR></TABLE>
No, not again. What did I do to deserve this harsh treatment. But on the other hand, getting called out isn't such a bad thing.
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From: Snowwhitepillowformybigfathead
Re: Be Droopy -- Don't Get Your Bushings in a Bind (Johnny Mac)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Johnny Mac »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Scott, if you could only show up to a race once in awhile we could have discussed this stuff in person. As it is, we get to type it out.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Your point is Not well taken...because I would very much prefer to be racing and talking to you in person about this Very Important Stuff.
Scott, who's seen neat little progressive tender springs (by Eibach) on super smooth working German hardware...what does it mean????
Your point is Not well taken...because I would very much prefer to be racing and talking to you in person about this Very Important Stuff.
Scott, who's seen neat little progressive tender springs (by Eibach) on super smooth working German hardware...what does it mean????