OK. I have no job right now. No job = no money for expensive brake pads. Went to NASA this past weekend to instruct and used $20 Wearever brake pads from Advance Auto. I drove rather hardish on them. Not as hard as I would with R4 or Panther + pads, but I was still rolling into turn 1 at 115 mph. I figured if I wore them out, I'd slap another set on there and keep going. They're $20!!

These pads never failed to stop me. Ever. They never even hinted at fading. They did not glaze. I just took them off to check them out and I can't tell that they are worn at all, with about 180-200 track miles this past weekend. What the hell are these things made of?

1 problem: my rotors became warped as hell after using them. I cooled them off as normal, an entire 3.27 mile cool down lap, drive around in the pits for 5 minutes, park it and periodically move the car a foot or two so no one section of the rotor continues to get cooked by the pads. Plus, the weather wasn't what I would consider hot this past weekend either.

I did 8 events last year with other pads, namely R4 and Panther, and never had this warping problem. Clues, suggestions?

 

I have come to the conclusion that brake pads might be the single biggest cause of rotor warpage. I have yet to warp any rotor using Hawk Blues, Porterfeild R4, or R4S. I have ran those 3 pads under the worse conditions possible on track and autox with no warped rotors.

Before I got into racing, I went through rotors like mad just on the street with pads from Axxis, Comptech, OEM, etc.

No real answer .. just observation.

 

Same reason maxQ has a spongey brake pedal -- it's an SE-R Thing.

Seriously, when I rode with you that last session, I could tell your rotors were just like mine have been in my SE-R(s). I do the same thing in my SE-R(s) that you do -- cool down lap + crawling around in pits with little/no braking. Sometimes the rotors get that thumpy-thumpy feedback through the brake pedal afterwards, sometimes they don't. <shrug>

 

Hi guys.

I run the Pep Boys Raybestos Ceramic Enhanced QS pads on my H1 Civic. they typically will last about 8 weekends plus 10k street miles. then i return them for another free set!

but about the "warping". are you sure its not just pad transfer onto the rotors? take a look at your rotors and see if you see "smears" of pad material on them. sometimes this happens, and if you just scuff off the material with some emery cloth the shuddering goes away. i usually am lazy, and just drive it a while and eventually you will notice it goes away. the rotors will finally look shiny again and the smeared pad junk will be worn off...

YMMV

Todd

 

That's wild. Could it be that the pad doesn't soak as much heat as Blues might, so the rotor takes a larger % of it than usual? That's such a long shot explanation IMO, but I dunno. I really have no clue what amt of heat a pad soaks in the first place, so there's no good basis for that statment....that I know of anyway.

 

That is an odd phenomenon. I cannot come up with an explanation other than what has been offered.

Cobra - Whose GSR burned up a set of Wearevers in 2 laps at Summit Point

 

I'd buy that. But it only seems to happen when I use these cheap pads. When R4 or Panther pads go on, there's no warping. Even at CMP and VIR south, the 2 hardest track around here for brakes.

Possibly, but I see minimal smearing. The rotors otherwise look good.

I have new one on order that will hopefully get here before this weekend. But I'll have these turned just in case.

 

This is a must read.

http://<a href="http://www.stoptech....s_myth.htm</a>

Joel

 

Excellent article! Thanks for the link.

Now. About my mushy pedal...

Andy

 

SpiFF: What kind of Axxis pads did you use that you "think" warped your rotors? I did 20+ auto-x events last year with the Metal Masters (all 4) on Brembo OE blanks and I 'm very hard on the brakes when I race. I also drive hard on the street. Haven't got any warpage yet. I 've put about 9-10k mi. on them so far and still using them. I plan on auto-xing with them again this season. Don't know how they 'd hold up road racing, but I 'll get these pads again if and when the ones on the car go.. they 're 1/2 the price of Porterfields. For auto-x, they 're an excellent pad with much better stopping power than OEM pads. My rotors were starting to warp too with the OEM pads after 4-5 auto-x events in the '00 season. Maybe because pads that are meant to last a long time are probably too hard and ruin the rotors?

 

Awesome article! Everyone read! Can someone elaborate what a emory cloth is? It says specifically NOT to use sand paper as it will make it worse, which is what ive been using.

 

Well... I've used emery cloth a few times and in my recollection, it's basically... very strong thick cloth with grinding material on one side. Not sure how it's different from sandpaper exactly in terms of having stuff get embedded in the disc, but I'll take their word for it

 

OH! I just now remembered. Its a cloth used for sanding down copper pipes and whatnot. Ive actually got some laying around somewhere. It comes in a little roll for a few bucks at home depot. Im definately gonna try that out next time out on the track, I expereienced the shudder from uneven pad material distribution. Its amazing that article goes against what 95% of the people say about brake shudder...warped disk.

 

your honda-tech homework. there will be a test.

 

Whoa, Myth #6 was one that I did not know....

-Chris, who has seen the brake light in his dash come on and did not like it.--

 

So, it is the crappy brake pads.

I'm still wrapping my brain around the fact that rotors never warp, and that it's 100% always caused by uneven material transfer.

My head hurts now....

 

As noted in the article, abrasive friction is the most important part of the braking process.

Most notably, if the pads do not "wear", if they stop the car, then something is "wearing" - i.e. the disc. Cheap and improperly designed brake pads result in incorrect material transfer under hard braking conditions (something the article doesn't talk much about) - incorrect transfer of DISC material onto the PAD.

This results in the same conditions as spoken of in the article - a "bumpy" brake pedal. The article never addresses this issue (mostly because people reading this are rarely using cheap pads).

One question that these manufacturers rarely discuss -- does this condition result in decreased performance? Most performance tests say no. Improperly bedded pads or poor transfer characteristics rarely impact 60-0 or 100-0 performance. Of the higher speeds I cannot comment (no information).

However, poor pad/disc match WILL reduce braking performance, and better pads will make better braking. Pads that transfer well, bedded properly, sacrifice themselves to the Gods of Friction better, and dissipate more energy more rapidly - therefore braking better.

Try "rebedding" as suggested by the article if you can't afford better pads - you're only trading disc instead of pad. Machining will also help, but is not always necessary.

Good luck. I hope the job situation improves.

Shawn

 

What are the symptoms you're experiencing?
In your part II thread, you say the front end shakes.
I've driven a car with real (as in not the myth) warped rotors ('90 Civic EX), and even under the lightest braking at the slowest speeds would result in a chattering steering wheel.
At the track in the latter sessions I get the serious front end shaking under heavy braking from the material transfer effect. I'll drive on these pads (Carbotech P+) for a week after the event, and I never feel any symptoms.

Anyways, I'm still not sure if your rotors are really warped. What's the verdict on that?

Edit: Oh okay I see it, Shawn hit the nail on the head:

[Modified by 4doorH22, 6:45 PM 3/1/2002]

 

And I was using $20 Wearevers.

Case closed.

 

why anyone would want to use $20 pads to go road racing is still a mystery to me.. job or no job. You had to pay $100-200 to road race no? Why not use that money for good pads and then wait till you have a job to go road racing? Now you 'll need new pads again, and maybe even rotors..

 

Not sure if you read this in my first post:
Let me recap
1) They were cheap
2) They stopped my car every time without fail.
3) They were cheap
4) Rotors for my car are stupid cheap ($27 for a 257mmX26mm rotor)
5) If they get the funky uneven deposits, I can sand it off or get them turned for not a lot of money.
6) Did I mention they were cheap?

When you instruct, the track time is free (as far as money exiting my bank account). So for $20 pads and the price of 2 tanks of 93 octane, I drove on VIR full course for 2 days. The rotors are not trashed, I had them turned and they're perfect. The pads were in such good shape, they're on the car right now as my street pad.

I'm really not so dumb after all...

 

IIRC he originally had the cheapie pads around for backup, on the principle that when the $$$ stuff wears out, it's better to be able to still lap (going easy on the brakes) than it is to sit out and watch everyone else play. Then, as part of a weird science project, he discovered that they actually worked and didn't burn up or fade. Hence the original discussion...

BTW- MaddMatt doesn't pay entry fees because he's an instructor. And his car is pretty much together, so his only expenses are travel and consumables. And the job market in his particular field sucks *** right now. So you can't blame him for "trying" the $20 pads...

PS- It isn't roadracing, it's opentrack practice and "high performance driving schools". BIG difference. Roadracing with $20 pads would be stupid and dangerous.

Jon
(MaddMatt's occasional co-driver)

 

Emory cloth: http://www.harcourt.com/dictionary/d...2/3502100.html

As far as what the stuff is in Layman's terms, its sandpaper made especially for polishing and grinding metal and NOT wood. I used this stuff all the time in high school metal sculpture where the teacher did not appreciate you calling it sandpaper.

Jonathan - who actually learned something in high school of value that can be used in the real world.

 

First off, as detailed above, you don't understand Matt's unique condition.

Second off, this doesn't help anybody or anything. Your post is useless drivel to everyone here, because it isn't constructive, or helpful, nor does it give any information that anyone needed.

It's just worthless criticism. Next time, read a little more, and try to consider other people's situation and feelings before you pull out a club.

Shawn

 

Hey buddy chill.. How would I know all the circuimstances and that he is an instructor and doesn't pay anything? I thought he was talking about road racing, and like others said, road racing on $20 pads is dangerours and stupid. That wasn't the case so I retract my statement..