Whats a good valve retainer to use with the spec b's? Stock or a upgraded one if so which one?

 

upgrade to titanium...Portflow seems to be the general consensus.

 

thanks for the info do you know where to get them and how much they are?

 

everywhere...jdmhp, IL4, $160

 

http://www.portflow.com


Jason

 

You can run stock for miles on end but only up to 8600rpms.....

 

FERREA, A bit more money, but less weight

 

Titanium retainers are lighter, that cannot be argued.

But are they actually stronger?

If not then why bother using them? I have already shown convincing proof that the weight advantage isn't all that much!

People here continuously over look the FACT that titanium retainers MUST be replaced more frequently to prevent failure. Doing regular inspections does NOT cut it. You will not see any signs of imminent failure until the failure occurs. But hey, itˇ¦s your choice.

 

Doing regular inspections you WILL see signs of immenent failure, unless you
are completely blind.

 

what signs would you look for, steve?
cracking? surface finish?

 

mainly impressions in the retainer from the spring.
I'll send you an example if you want hehehe
I got 15 of em. the 16th one is just the center part

 

Actually Titanium and steel have very similar mechanical properties when it come to yield and tensile strenght. Titanium's great advantage is that it is 44 % lighter then steel.
I think the reason why Ti retainers "seems" to fail sooner then steel retainer is that they are often use with stiffer springs and at higher RPM so they are subject to higher stress then the stock retainer.
Under similar condition would Ti be better then steel ???

 

I would have to agree with that.

 

I would have to concur with the above statement also, only if the Ti retainer was properly engineered: material spec and design wise. The pitfall of Ti is it's 1/2 as stiff as steel. However it is more ductile and has a very good fatigue strength. If engineered, manufacutred and implemented correctly, the part should be plenty tough. Read: check your installed height of your valve springs...once that spring bottoms out and that cam mashes that rocker arm down all the way, ain't no retainer, no matter what it's made of, is gonna live too long doing that.

-Geo

 

So I ask again, why use Titanium retainers IF they are not stronger then the OE retainers?

I have to say that if I witnessed the springs embedding themselves in the retainers that would be enough for me to get them the hell out of my engine!

 

If they are making depressions on the retainers then most likely your springs are
real stiff(in which case the stock retainers wont stand up nearly as long) or the
springs are binding.

You will also NEED retainers if you are constantly turning high RPMs such as I do.
They are as strong and lighter and up to the task unlike stock

 

As an example : to get maximum power out of the Toda spec B it is usually required to reprogram the fuel cut off point at a higher setting (around 9300 rpm). With the Toda springs and stock retainers this might be very border line as far as valve float (I'm speculating here for the example I don't how far you could go with this combination.) With the titanium retainer you would get an extra 200-300 rpm before catastrophic failure. Every little advantage you can put on your side is good IMO. I would be fairly nervous to know that every time I shift at the redline i'm only a few rpm away from breakdown... so I put Ti retainers in.

That is the best reason I can think of.

 

Yep, I did a lot of research in those things the last months..
Don`t risk blowing your engine.
I asked toda, if I could run Toda B with my crower valvetrain. They told me I can`t , because the crowers are too stiff. But according to Vegeta it would be no problem running Jun2 with crower springs and retainers.

Anyway, my advice:
If you want to run Toda B, go an get Toda springs, retainers and Toda camgears and you can be sure you`ve got parts that were designed to work together.

If you don`t have the bucks, safe some money, be patient

just my 2 (Euro)cents

 

Does Portflow and Ferea both offer nitride treated Ti retainers? Or is that just standard? I thought I read somewhere of a company that offered different coating on them....

 

So after reading all that are TI retainers really better than steel? Is it worth upgrading them?

 

First, if the springs are binding then I don't think it would be fair to blame the retainers for any engine failure that might occur, regardless of what material they are made of. If someone can't figure out how to install the equipment properly then they are going to experience failures regardless.

Second, I can't argue that titanium retainers are indeed lighter then stock and will allow you to spin your engine a possible 300 RPM further then the stock retainers, and I can't argue that too some, this small advantage is important.

But if your claim is that a given set-up with titanium retainers will allow an extra 500-1000RPM out of the engine I haven't seen any evidence that would support this claim. Of course this requires the retainers to be of the same strength, and has been the basses for my argument all along.

Personally, I don't believe that this extra 300-RPM is more important then reliability to the "average" member of this board.

Sure, there are many here who have used these retainers for some time without problems and sure they shouldn't expect to see problems immediately. But I feel for most it is like driving around with a ticking time bomb under your hood. Unless you’re going to keep resetting the counter every year or so eventually your time will run out and we know what that will mean.

But hey, do what ever turns you on. Obviously I'm a little more conservative then most, perhaps that's the engineer in me!

Oh yeah, I have used 300RPM as the possible gains with these retainers, when my calculations actually predict only a 160RPM gain. If my calculations are correct then the improvements are even less significant then I think anyone would have thought, even myself.

Regards,

 

I'm not trying to change your mind or anything but I think that maybe your not give enought credit to the strenght of Ti retainers. Especially when comparing them to a ticking bomb. If they fail for some reason, chances are the steel retainers would have fail also. Under "normal" conditions (everything within spec) they should (I'm using the word "should" because nothing is 100% sure in this world except death and taxes) last as long as steel retainers.
I'm the one who introduce the 300 Rpm but maybe I should of said 200-230RPM based on what we found.

Cheers

 

I did no such thing, you however are using my explanation for the Ti retainer
failures I have seen to label ti retainers as unreliable. I am correcting your
error.

300rpm? I am turning over 1400rpm over stock. Something I DEFINITELY
wouldnt even try with stock retainers. When high rpms come into play the
"small" weight advantage doesnt seem as small.

I have seen stock retainers fail on numerous occasions. Ti retainers are stronger
or the weight means a lot more than you make it out to be.

Probably not since the majority of you guys dont even make any power past 8500.

Ticking time bomb? Not really.
From my experience, the gain isnt as small as your calculations put it.

 

Sure, perhaps I'm over stating my point a bit (or even a bunch) but this world (and especially this market) need people (like me) to bring into question some of the often misinformed assumptions made about various parts we add to our cars.

I'm am not trying to say that Ti retainers do not have a place in our hobby, but I think it would be foolish to believe that they are the perfect solution to the problem. Titanium is far from a perfect metal.

The FACT still remains that titanium is a metal that is far more prone to fatigue failure then steel (everything else being equal). This is important to understand when "Joe" decides he wants to upgrade his valve train on his daily driver that he doesn't plan on servicing every year.

However, what I do find remarkable is that the NSX uses Titanium connecting rods, but didn’t use Titanium retainers… Hmmmmm.

Regards,

 

If I'm not mistaken, the NSX also uses titanium valves. Didn't Peter Cunningham's supercharge NSX revved near 10000 rpm at the begining of last year GT season (before they made him drope 1000rpm because he was to fast). I wonder what is in that engine ??(just curious)
Anyway, I guess this is one of those "taste great" "less filling" argument where everybody is partially right.