So the story begins last Thursday when I decide to do a little project with my friends and put on my D16Y8 manifold and B18A throttle body that has been sitting around my garage since December. We start at noon with a trip to the Acura dealer to pick up a throttle body gasket to use as a template then it is off to do some metal work. Four hours later and another trip to Lowe's we have machined to manifold to accept the 58mm throttle body no questions asked and we prep it for paint. On goes a nice coat of aluminum color high-temp paint and now for the parts scavenge. I take injectors and there respective seals from a spare D16A6 intake manifold and put them in place to tighten down the D16Y8 Fuel rail. What I do notice is that the seals from the D16A6 are flush in their native manifold, flush in the D15B7 manifold I also have for parts, but stick out maybe 0.25"on the D16Y8 manifold. First question of the day: Is there a difference in injector seals among the years?

We move the car over to my other friends house down the street to do the install which is supposed to be quick and simple. Old manifold off, new manifold on; wrong! We ended up stripping the last nut on the A6 manifold thanks to me turning my back and my friend using a 12 point socket and not having a solid seat on the nut. This is the nut right under the V shaped ridge that can only be accessed by using a gear wrench or a socket from underneath, or possibly a socket, a 90 degree turn and some extensions. I get pissed off and go inside and this is the result https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1288083 Thanks to all that helped . We took plan B and opted for emergency head removal. The head is already below the threshold of 100 degrees so it is safe to remove. With all due haste we jack up the car and proceed for a standard head gasket change.

Disconnect header first, drop front crossmember to allow it to drop. Most of the coolant from the head is already out from when we disconnected the intake manifold lines but the rest is gone when the main head lines are removed. The remaining electrical connections are dropped and the valve cover comes off. The distributor is still in place since I do not want to deal with having to reset the ignition timing.. The timing belt has been marked with white-out to show where it is in relation with what tooth on the cam gear and removed. I attack the headbolts (stock) and remove them in standard criss-cross pattern, guarter turn to break seal and so on and so across the ten and then full turns, then removal. We pull the head straight off with the old intake manifold still attached and the distributor looking all cute and pretty.

The headgasket is in one piece still attached to the head and at no point do I place the head straight on the ground. I **** it to the side and then grab a set of pliers and remove the remaining intake manifold nut. I switch out the manifolds and put it back together again. We lift the head back up and go back to the car and the waiting block. Some coolant had gotten into the cylinders but it had been removed using standard paper towels. We struggle to get the head lined up in with the dowel pin and in the process scratch up the head gasket around that area. Two of the head stud holes have liquid in them and I being a supergenius assume that it will come out if I torque it down extra slowly .

I torque the head back down to the proper spec and think, "How many times can the stock head bolts be torqued down?" I know for a fact that I alone have removed the head twice and the previous owner who knows. We have now retorqued the head and are reusing the previous headgasket (felt like material) that had been changed out 10 months ago. Everything is reattached and coolant is added back into the system. As I am adjusting the wire harness it slips and one of the little clips that is bolted to the intake to keep the harness in place slips and hits the positive of the alternator and sparks. It is 2:00AM and my realization is that we left the battery in place in the trunk. It really is out of sight and out of mind. I think nothing of it, continue on with the wiring, move and extend the IAT sensor, and get ready to prime the system.

On first start of the fuel pump we are leaking at the fuel return line. We stop and extra clamp it. Second prime and we are leaking from the number one injector as it isn't in all the way. Third prime and we are leaking from the number three injector A LOT and it is in place so I replace it with one from the manifold that had just been on the car. The pump is primed again and no leaks. I try and turn over the motor and it turns over, but really slow. It is cranking, but really slow and laborous. I am thinking first off that it is a problem with the electrical system since I sparked the alternator. I tried cranking it three times before the battery just dies. It is chilling at 5 volts, not good.

Items replaced - Result
1) Battery - Cranks sound labor, slow
2) Alternator - Cranks sound labored, still slow
3) Starter - Cranks sound labored, see a pattern?

We then checked spark, we had spark on all cylinders. Also, when checking for a spark and holding the ignition wire next to a ground, be careful as the spark may bounce back, up the wire and into your hand. It is not fun. I then remove the spark plugs to check for coolant or fuel. Cylinders 1,2,4 are dry while number 3 smells strongly of fuel. Number three is the injector I knew was good so I replace the remaining three with known good injectors. Question - The little red filter cones that go into the top of the fuel injector, are they needed for proper operation?.

Before the fuel injector replacement I tried resetting the timing on the crank and the cam, but for some reason after I remove the spark plugs the crank does not want to be turned by hand. Can my timing belt have skipped and put the timing that far off? and how will I rotate my cam to TDC apart from the crank?

And here I am now, typing this up seeking help and knowledge.

Cliffnotes - Read bold for important questions
Items Known -
We have spark, ignition, don't know about compression and don't know about cam/crank timing.

This we will be bumped regularly until I figure this out and pictures may come tomorrow evening.

 

The head bolts should never be reused, and you have found out the hard way that anything in their holes will effect the torque reading. How many miles and what kind of running condition was the block before you started all this? How's the oil? With all the plugs out, you should be able to move the crank by hand with a little muscle. As for moving the cam, I used a box wrench. You know how to line it up and everything right?
Have you checked to make sure all your grounds are hooked up, and getting a good connection? I suspect you'll be needing a rebuild, or another block.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by h8tred &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The head bolts should never be reused, and you have found out the hard way that anything in their holes will effect the torque reading. How many miles and what kind of running condition was the block before you started all this? How's the oil? With all the plugs out, you should be able to move the crank by hand with a little muscle. As for moving the cam, I used a box wrench. You know how to line it up and everything right?
Have you checked to make sure all your grounds are hooked up, and getting a good connection? I suspect you'll be needing a rebuild, or another block. </TD></TR></TABLE>

1) I knew liquid in the holes would affect the torque readings, but there was only one and it was in the far corner.
2) Block had 78,000 recorded miles and it was running, hence forth this line - <TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">We move the car over to my other friends house down the street to do the install which is supposed to be quick and simple.</TD></TR></TABLE>
3) The oil is there, up at level.
4) I know how to line everything up, I just don't know how to line up the cam while the head is torqued, I am afraid I will have piston to valve - contact.
5) All grounds are hooked up, how do I know this? None were touched.

 

Line the crank to TDC, the white or middle mark on the pulley (Correct me if I'm wrong) with the pointer on the lower timing belt cover. Then the cam should have the up marked on it, and the two lines at the bottom should be lined up with the deck. Try also turning your distributer all the way to the firewall to retard the ignition timing. See if it fires up then. You're getting fuel to all four cylinders now right?

The only thing I can think that would make it crank slow after replacing all those parts would be bad bearings somewhere. I remember when I put a rod through my block, I thought the knocking was a rod bearing, turned out to be the #1 wrist pin had seized. However, you shouldn't even have to worry about that with 78k, unless you beat the hell out of it like I did lol.

Do you have AC? If so, take the belt off and see if it cranks easier. I'll post more if I think of anything else.

 

I understand the concept of turning the crank to the white line and and the cam should be lined up with lines even with the valve cover. I have done a couple of valve adjustment jobs no problem. I haven't checked for fuel at all four cylinders yet since I haven't cranked it over since the earlier attempt at hand cranking and the crank stopped. My bearings where in fine condition four hours ago, I hope to god they wouldn't die all at once sitting there. I don't have AC, I removed that whole system last year.

 

Sorry for the redundant info... How was the tranny? I can't think of anything else that would cause it to crank slow. Even if it was spot rust on the cylinder walls, cranking it would get rid of it, so that can't be it.

 

*Disclaimer*
I did not read your entire post. It was way too long.

Anyways, is the timing right? I just finished a rebuild on a D15B7, the thing would not start. Timing was right on, had fuel, had compression (as far as new rings & fresh cylinder walls go), had air, and had spark.... It turned out that the distributor was 180* out.

The funny thing is, #1 would still fire at TDC at the crank. So I was positive that anything to do with the timing was ok. Considering that you removed the head, maybe you took the distributor off... Just an idea...

How long has the motor been sitting? Try putting about 10 drops of oil in each cylinder if you suspect you're losing compression between the rings and cylinder walls.

 

And no, the cones are not <u>needed</u>. Even though the fuel filter will get most debris, its an extra safety precaution to keep the injectors from clogging. I wouldn't go without these for too long...

 

You know, I wasn't going to read it all, but it's composed so well I couldn't help myself. A rarity here on Honda Tech. He didn't take the dizzy off at all. The engine has about 78k on it and from what he said it was running well. You really should read the whole post, you're just further insinuating that the people on here are illiterate bastards...

 

I guess I'm doing pretty good for being illiterate. You know, being able to read and all...

I guess I don't get into reading posts as much as you do Besides, I don't think you would have said anything if I didn't put my "disclaimer" up at the top...

 

What can I say, I like to give people **** haha. Anyway, and updates brother?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by h8tred &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">How was the tranny?</TD></TR></TABLE> Transmission is fine, it has a 13 pound flywheel mated to ACT HDSS with less then 5,000 miles on it - properly broken in of course.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by I8ayellowcrayon &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Considering that you removed the head, maybe you took the distributor off... Just an idea...</TD></TR></TABLE> I'm pretty sure the distributor never left the head, and if it did it slipped off and then reattached itself when I wasn't looking

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by I8ayellowcrayon &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">How long has the motor been sitting?</TD></TR></TABLE> Right now it has been sitting for a week, at the time of the problem it had been sitting for a little more then 6 hours.<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by I8ayellowcrayon &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">And no, the cones are not <u>needed</u>. Even though the fuel filter will get most debris, its an extra safety precaution to keep the injectors from clogging. I wouldn't go without these for too long...</TD></TR></TABLE> Thanks for the information on that, on that same note does it matter which main injector seals I am using? As I mentioned in my original post - <TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Me &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I take injectors and there respective seals from a spare D16A6 intake manifold and put them in place to tighten down the D16Y8 Fuel rail. What I do notice is that the seals from the D16A6 are flush in their native manifold, flush in the D15B7 manifold I also have for parts, but stick out maybe 0.25"on the D16Y8 manifold. First question of the day: Is there a difference in injector seals among the years?</TD></TR></TABLE>
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by h8tred &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Anyway, and updates brother?</TD></TR></TABLE> So far today I have managed to pick up a new metal headgasket from Honda - P/N#12251-P2J-004 and as well as a set of ARP Headstuds - P/N#ARP208-4301 from No Limit Motorsports. The headstuds won't come in till Monday but that gives me time to remove the head again and sit down and think over the weekend. I went to Titan Motorsports out here and they didn't have the studs in stock and it would take a week and half to ship them in from ARP.

 

When you take it off, look for any signs of more liquid in the cylinders, I didn't think about it, but it could be coolant in there causing it to crank slow, which would be caused by the scratch in the old gasket.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by h8tred &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">When you take it off, look for any signs of more liquid in the cylinders, I didn't think about it, but it could be coolant in there causing it to crank slow, which would be caused by the scratch in the old gasket.</TD></TR></TABLE> That is what I am going to do. Also, if there is coolant in the cylinders (enough so) wouldn't it simulate a hydrolock situation and stop me from being able to hand turn the crank?

 

Yes it would, it would also stop it from turning over when trying to start if bad enough, Don't ask me how I know...

 

Any other electrical fluctuations... when you crank it, do the interior lights dim atall? I'm wondering about the connection to the starter / batt. Maybe that circuit has a weak connection in it. (possibly at ignition switch)

Have you tried replacing the initial fuel with starter fluid to see if it combusts and runs for a few seconds?

 

So with the plugs out of the head, there is still alot of strength needed to turn the crank. It should be rather easy. Is the t-belt on correctly, not binding anywhere? To rotate the crank to TDC you need to spin the camshaft so that the two lines on each side of the cam are inline with the head. Look at the front of the cam mark and its location next to the tooth. Follow the mark on the tooth to the back of the gear, it should be right on the head. Its hard to tell if its over or under since you can't see it at eye level. If both marks are even with the head and the third mark is pointing north, cam timing should be on. If the distributor was never touched, pull the dist cap of and look at the position of the dizzy rotor. It should be pointing @ the #1 cylinder wire's location on the cap. Then head/dizzy timing is dead on. Next spin the crank clockwise until the white line inbetween two red 1's is lined up with the 'gunsight' on the timing belt cover. If its there it is now on TDC. Put the belt back on and tighten the tensioner. Spin the crank twice around the TDC mark clock wise, then counter clockwise. If nothing is binding then check to make sure when you spin it again that the crank is at TDC still, and the cam lines are in line with the head, and the dizzy rotor is still facing #1 cylinder wire pos. If all that is good, your timing should be damn near dead on. And your problem lies elsewhere. Have you checked the cylinder compression when your trying to fire it? That would help alot more also.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by NikoZai &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Any other electrical fluctuations... when you crank it, do the interior lights dim atall? I'm wondering about the connection to the starter / batt. Maybe that circuit has a weak connection in it. (possibly at ignition switch)

Have you tried replacing the initial fuel with starter fluid to see if it combusts and runs for a few seconds?</TD></TR></TABLE> The interior lights dimmed only when the battery drained out, which is odd because after two crank attempts the battery was completly discharged. I know the engine wiring harness is in good condition as I took it out and decided to clean it up / rewrap / rewire some links on Tuesday to kill time - might as well clean up the engine bay if the motor isn't running. Also with the ignition switch idea, I as well don't see that dying over the span of hours as it was working properly before. I have had the ignition switch go out, but that was back in 03 and was promptly replaced. If worse comes to worse, I will temporarily bring the battery back to the front of the car after everything is installed / re-assembled and try to crank it up. I have not tried starter fluid yet, but the proper way to use it is to open the throttle body to WOT and spray it in while cranking?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by h8tred &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Yes it would, it would also stop it from turning over when trying to start if bad enough, Don't ask me how I know...</TD></TR></TABLE> How do you know ?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DOHCZCCRXSi &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">To rotate the crank to TDC you need to spin the camshaft so that the two lines on each side of the cam are inline with the head. Look at the front of the cam mark and its location next to the tooth. Follow the mark on the tooth to the back of the gear, it should be right on the head.</TD></TR></TABLE> So let me get this straight -
1) Disconnect timing belt
2) Align camshaft through use of cam gear to TDC independant of the crank pulley
QUESTION: On an internally stock D16A6, will this cause Piston-to-Valve contact at any point through the rotation?
3) Spin crank pulley to TDC (White mark)
4) Reconnect timing belt

Did I get this all correct?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Have you checked the cylinder compression when your trying to fire it? That would help alot more also.</TD></TR></TABLE> I will check when I get my ARP Headstuds in on Monday. With a D16Y8 Headgasket + D16Z6 ARP Headstuds + Level head and block (checked with straight-edge ) + 10 month old head I should have near perfect compression barring an act of God.

 

As long as you keep them close to relative, try to set the cam while the head is off to make sure, or at least as close as you can get it.

I had a head gasket go on me along with damn near every coolant hose on the car. I didn't know about the head gasket so I replaced all the hoses, and it acted like it was running on three cylinders. I tried to start it the next day and it cranked about a quarter turn and just stopped.

I tapped it a couple of times and nothing. Pulled the plugs and cranked it, and it shot water up like a whale. Now I have oil going into my coolant and massive over heating problems. I either gouged the mating surfaces cleaning the old gasket, have a warped head, bad head bolts, or any combo of the lot. My engine is pretty much toast as I drive it every day like this. What can I say, I'm poor lol.

Have somebody hold the clutch, and see if that helps you turn it by hand at the crank.

P.s. now's the time to replace the water pump if you see fit.

 

QUESTION: On an internally stock D16A6, will this cause Piston-to-Valve contact at any point through the rotation?


Not unless your crank is at TDC already, because then 2 pistons will be at the top of the cylinder walls and that will cause the valves to hit the pistons as you turn the cam. Use some long screwdrivers or a few cut up coat hangers and turn the crank until they're all even[pistons/screwdrivers or hangers ontop of] and then the pistons will be all even at mid crank. Then turn the cam shaft, because they will tap, but since your barely moving the cam it wont destroy anything. But the extra precaution is good, better to be safe than sorry.

1] Pull the timing belt
2] Move crank until cylinders are even at mid stroke using above method.
3] Set cam timing as mentioned in my first post
4] Make sure the dizzy rotor beneath the dizzy cap is facing the #1 spark location. I hope you understand what I mean, its rather hard to put to words. Where the #1 spark plug wire is on the dizzy cap, is the way the tip of the dizzy rotor should be facing. As long as its facing there than the ignition timing is on. But you have to set cam timing before checking the dizzy.
5] Put on crank and cover, but no belt.
6] Set crank timing to TDC. TDC is the line that has two other on each side of it. Its usually a diff color than the other 2, or maybe the paint has faded off. It will look like this | l |. The middle 1 being TDC. You can also tell by looking @ the coat hanger or screw driver ontop of the piston on piston #1 will now be at its highest point of movement. Anymore movement will cause it to go back down. Now your crank timing is set perfect. Assuming you know how to use the cover's 'alignment notch' to aline the crank with the cover.
6] Pull crank and cover back off.
7] loosen the tensioner and slide the belt on being careful not to move anything.
8] You'll notice that there's probably alot of slack on one side of the belt. Turn the crank[which will turn the cam and dizzy also] 2 times[ONLY 2] clockwise. The first turn will set you 180º off TDC, and the second turn will put you back to TDC. Spin the crank 2 more times counter-clockwise[2 ONLY] and it will again be at TDC. I do this to make sure nothing is binding or tapping. You will also notice now the belt has been tightened.
9] Torque the tensioner to its correct amount.
10] Start that bitch, and your timing is not your problem. I've done more than a fair share of SOHC t belt jobs and this is exactly how I've done it everytime and the only problem I've ever had was on newly assembled heads where the valves were too tight. Always good to recheck the valves. But if it wont fire after this, I garuntee you its not timing related. Also, this isn't that hard, shouldn't take you but about an hour and a half by yourself. Good luck doc, and report back to us ASAP with any results.

 

First off, thank you very much DOHCZCCRXSi for your very informative instructions on how to set crank/cam timing. for you if you are in my neck of the woods. Now time for my lovely questions (I have millions, I am a very cautious type first time around)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by You &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">5] Put on crank and cover, but no belt.</TD></TR></TABLE> I am assuming by this that at one point prior the crank pulley has been removed? Which is a PITA with hand-tools, correct? If this is the case, I do have instructions on how to remove the crankshaft pulley but I better have a couple of on hand for that
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by You &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Good luck doc, and report back to us ASAP with any results.</TD></TR></TABLE> Will do, with pictures and hopefully a write-up on Head gasket change, and ARP Head Stud Install.

 

I don't think there is a difference in injector seal sizes... I've put OBD1 injectors on an OBD0 motor, and vice versa. Not sure about the Y8 rail/manifold, but I wouldn't think they would be different. Why would Honda change something if there isn't a problem?

I was just curious about the distributor because that happened to me on my girlfriends car this week.

Also, when I was setting the cam/crank timing, I had to re-time it a few times because I was a few teeth off when I put on the new belt. I put the cam at TDC, and loosened the timing belt tensioner and just turned the crank until it was at 0*TDC. If the belt is loose enough, the crank will skip teeth on the belt and will not damage it. I didn't notice any valve-piston contact, but I didn't rotate anything more than probably 30*.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by dr_latino999 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I am assuming by this that at one point prior the crank pulley has been removed? Which is a PITA with hand-tools, correct? If this is the case, I do have instructions on how to remove the crankshaft pulley but I better have a couple of on hand for that.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes, your definitely going to need either a craftsmen breaker bar and socket/extensions or a damn good impact. I work for pepboys and I had to barrow one of the shop guns just to get mine off. Quite a PITA, but its all worth it. and yes, to get the old belt off you need to remove the crank pulley so you can take the timing belt cover off. Also, FYI there's a 'woodruff key' on the crank/crank pulley. Its a small square of steel and its very important, don't lose it because they're easy to hop away. Aside from that you should have everything you need to get that thing timed in.

And when torquing the head down, I just wanna make sure you understand there's a sequence to follow, start with middle 2 bolts and work your way out in either direction 1 bolt after another. And try to torque then to like 14ftlbs, then 35ftlbs before the final torquing that way you slowly bring them all up to torque spec, keeps the chance of the head gasket not sealing correctly down.

 

I used an air gun, and still had to heat mine up with a torch...