Well another problem for the type r.

I drive fairly normal daily driving but today I decieded to have a little fun. I was getting off the interstate (0 traffic) and accerlerated and downshifted and brought the revs up to about 7k. and during this downshift I was undergoing hard braking. Right when this happen the car had a poof of smoke. It appeared that my back brakes locked up (abs didn't kick in?) but rubber burning smells quite different burning oil. I poped the hood saw the dipstick popped out...now this is the actual dipstick not the tube. Meaning there was a ton of crankcase pressure that caused it to pop. Could my pcv valve be clogged? or one of my rings have gone bad. I havn't done a compression test or leakdown. Im getting ready to leave for a graduation party and wont be able to test until tomorrow. So I was looking for any insight you guys might have.

Thanks
-Dan

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by citrus3000psi &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">...the revs up to about 7k. and during this downshift I was undergoing hard braking. Right when this happen the car had a poof of smoke. It appeared that my back brakes locked up... I [popped] the hood saw the dipstick popped out....</TD></TR></TABLE>

You're driving like it's the 1960's instead of the 21st century.

You don't have to abuse the car like that to stop it. Wherever it's reasonable to do it, finish your braking before the downshift, and before the turn in.

If it's not reasonable to do the turn like that, trail brake into the turn, and rev match, shift and move from the brake pedal to the accelerator in one smooth, fast move.

If you keep doing what you're doing, then you are going to hurt the car sooner or later. I'm sure the maneouvre you tried looks and feels neat, and I'm sure you were enacting a scene out of Grand Prix or Le Mans but it's 2005 and you drive a fairly modern car. You really just don't have to drive it like that to get somewhere.

If this is the only time you've done that, I doubt you've hurt the car. However, as you speculated, you are radically and instantly changing pressures on many of the motor's parts when you drive like that, and you will destroy something sooner or later.

I hope you don't think I'm a complete *** for suggesting this, but think about hooking up with your local NASA chapter, or some other high performance driving school, and learn a little more about how to drive and about vehicle dynamics under high stress situations. Seriously, I don't want to sound like I'm lecturing you, but you will be absolutely amazed at how much fun you can have with a stock DC2 ITR when you hit the track with it, and hit the track with a little training.

 

Last I checked... heel-toe(rev matching style) braking isn't a bad thing George. On the street though... it is pretty overkill... but so is trailbraking into a turn

As far as dipstick tube... you might have had it loose before and it just jiggled loose. Clean it up, toss a little jbweld to it and should make for a good change.

Otherwise, look into a new crankcase ventilation system... the stock PCV setup isn't the greatest for high rpms. The Endyn setup really does a good job... or you can attempt to copy it... or... search around for the Huge crankcase ventilation thread.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by splitime &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Last I checked... heel-toe(rev matching style) braking isn't a bad thing George.</TD></TR></TABLE>

But that's not what he was doing.

Properly driving with a rev match would mean that you rev match and release the clutch only at the moment of turn in, or the moment at which you would cease the trail braking and begin the acceleration phase.

There is no longer any logical reason to rev match and release the clutch at any moment significantly before turn in.

If your motor is engaged with the transmission at any moment significantly before the turn in, then you are not slowing the car as well as you could be, and you are adding unnecessarily to the wear and tear.

Brake pads and rotors are cheap.

Clutches are more expensive, and gearboxes are really quite expensive.

And pardon my saying so, but if we are so rough that we are actually popping the dipstick out of its tube, then we really have to face the fact that a significant change in our driving styles is probably in order.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by citrus3000psi &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Well another problem for the type r.

I drive fairly normal daily driving but today I decieded to have a little fun. I was getting off the interstate (0 traffic) and accerlerated and downshifted and brought the revs up to about 7k. and during this downshift I was undergoing hard braking. Right when this happen the car had a poof of smoke. It appeared that my back brakes locked up (abs didn't kick in?) but rubber burning smells quite different burning oil. I poped the hood saw the dipstick popped out...now this is the actual dipstick not the tube. Meaning there was a ton of crankcase pressure that caused it to pop. Could my pcv valve be clogged? or one of my rings have gone bad. I havn't done a compression test or leakdown. Im getting ready to leave for a graduation party and wont be able to test until tomorrow. So I was looking for any insight you guys might have.

Thanks
-Dan</TD></TR></TABLE>

i'm not sure if clogged pcv valve can do that, take it out and check it, unless dipstick wasn't all the way in to begin with or it doesn't seal tight enough..

 

i heel-toe ALL THE TIME in the street whether its to slow down to a stop or slowing down for a turn. am i killing my car?

 

George...I was heel-toe'ing thats why I brought the revs up to 7k. I wasn't turning because there wasn't a place to turn. Im not good at heel-toe'ing so thats why i practice usally getting of the interstate since Im moving at a high rate of speed. Sorry if you misunderstood my post eariler. And I'm not asking for comments on my driving. This car has been tracked well over 10 times and this one time (even if I did not do it correctly) should not have popped out the dipstick. So I don't want suggestions about driving otherwise I would have asked. I just want information about the crankcase and the chance of it being the pcv valve. But like I said Im going to do a compression test tonight so I will see what that turns up.

 

I cannot heel-toe on the street with the sneakers/shoes I wear. Little lugs/treads always get caught on the side of the brake or gas.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by civicsrfasty0 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i heel-toe ALL THE TIME in the street whether its to slow down to a stop or slowing down for a turn. am i killing my car? </TD></TR></TABLE>

Rev matching helps preserve the motor and drivetrain, when done correctly.

What most people call heel/toeing is pretty much a waste of time, IMHO, and when done incorrectly greatly exacerbates the wear and tear. There is absolutely no point, IMHO, in heel/toeing when you are stopping in a straight line. The car stops faster with the drivetrain disconnected.

If you're doing it correctly, however, you are not wearing out anything.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by citrus3000psi &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">George...I was heel-toe'ing thats why I brought the revs up to 7k. I wasn't turning because there wasn't a place to turn. Im not good at heel-toe'ing so thats why i practice usally getting of the interstate since Im moving at a high rate of speed.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm really very sorry, but, yes, I did jump to a conclusion. Sorry about that.

As long as you're just trying to perfect the technique and know it's a waste of time in a straight line.

 

Just got done doing a comp test. Looks like the rings are still holding.

210, 209, 210, 210

Is there any way to check to see if the pcv is clogged? Or should I just get an endyn kit and be done with it?

I guess I don't fully understand the pcv valve system and how it works. I have search and found many posts and have read up about it but I just having trouble making sense of it. So if anyone can give an explanation without leaving in holes I think I could understand it better.

Thanks
-Dan

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by citrus3000psi &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">But like I said Im going to do a compression test tonight so I will see what that turns up.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Dan, make sure you keep us updated on how it turns out.

My suggestion is that you should try to duplicate the problem and see if it is an one-time issue. Correct me if I'm wrong, if the PVC is clogged and popped the dipstick out, you should be able to duplicate the problem by revving the car in neutral.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Dan, make sure you keep us updated on how it turns out.

My suggestion is that you should try to duplicate the problem and see if it is an one-time issue. Correct me if I'm wrong, if the PVC is clogged and popped the dipstick out, you should be able to duplicate the problem by revving the car in neutral.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes...I havn't tried that yet...Prolly will tomorrow. I havn't driven the car since the incident, well home right after getting off the interstate..(2 miles or so).





Modified by citrus3000psi at 7:02 AM 6/26/2005

 

Hahaha

Dude, I went through the same thing (well, a dozen times now). It happens. I overreacted too.

The stock PCV system kinda sucks. Do you have a bypass for the PCV, because the b00st in the intake manifold holds the PCV shut. (You are turbo, right?)

Also, the turbo manifold and turbo really heat up the dipstick, and the rubber gets brittle or smokes on it. Get a new dipstick, PCV breather catchcan, and drive on.

If you already have a breather setup, nevermind. Just get the new dipstick.

Spooge of oil on hood == bad. I've had this with both the stock motor and built motor.
[EDIT: Check me out, I am checking my compression too, hahahaha!!!!! Spark plugs are out]



Semi-permanent solution:

-Chris

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by citrus3000psi &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I guess I don't fully understand the pcv valve system and how it works. </TD></TR></TABLE>

It serves two purposes. Emissions (catching blowby and oil vapor) and helping water get out of your crankcase from the blowby.

There's 2 breathers for the crankcase, essentially. The PCV is basically a checkvalve, that sucks air out of your crankcase and into the center of your intake manifold.

The valve cover breather is a straight hose into the intake somewhere.

Under idle, you'd probably be sucking at a pretty decent vacuum from the PCV. The valve cover will actually have a slight negative pressure and suck clean air through your crankcase. This helps evaporate condensed water in your crankcase.

Under full throttle (0 vacuum) an N/A car will get positive pressure in the crankcase, which escapes out both ports. In a boosted car, the PCV is held shut, and all the crankcase pressure has to go out the valve cover breather.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by civicsrfasty0 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i heel-toe ALL THE TIME in the street whether its to slow down to a stop or slowing down for a turn. am i killing my car? </TD></TR></TABLE>

What gave you that idea?

[edit, 3iar, time for bed]

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by George Knighton &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Rev matching helps preserve the motor and drivetrain, when done correctly.

What most people call heel/toeing is pretty much a waste of time, IMHO, and when done incorrectly greatly exacerbates the wear and tear. There is absolutely no point, IMHO, in heel/toeing when you are stopping in a straight line. The car stops faster with the drivetrain disconnected.

If you're doing it correctly, however, you are not wearing out anything. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Im not understanding something. I have never tried the heel-toe effect b/c I thought it was only meant for the track. I have always thought that this was done to keep the engine in the power band so that maximum output can be achieved when exiting a turn.

But like I said I never do this, so i am a newb .......someone care to enlighten me?

 

Thanks for the info chris F. The pcv valve system makes a little more sense but one question...How does the bottom side of the block see pressure? Where does it come from? Oh by the way I'm n/a not turbo.

Thanks

 

Despite info above... there is a benefit to heel/toe when coming to stops in straight lines... you WILL stop faster. This comes from my moderate track experience and that which has been passed to me from NASA and SCCA instructors. The backpressure of the engine reving down will add an extra stopping force to the car on top of the majority being done by the brakes. This of course will also increase wear on the car... but honestly.. what doesn't.

As far as the bottom end seeing pressure... the motion of the entire bottom assembly (pistons/rods etc... creates a pressure...also included in this is any blowby.. there is always a very minimal amount. This pressure increases as the Revs increase, which in turn becomes more than the stock pcv valve can accomodate. Which is why, many times you will see breather systems for the block and even more added to the head(dual taps on front) etc...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by splitime &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Despite info above... there is a benefit to heel/toe when coming to stops in straight lines... you WILL stop faster. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm sorry, but that is just not true.

If you drop me a line with what NASA instructor told you that, I will have the chief of instruction contact him/her.

The turning mass of the motor acts to continue to move the car forward, causing the brakes to work harder and putting more wear on the motor.

The fastest way to stop a modern car is with the motor completely disengaged.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by George Knighton &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm sorry, but that is just not true.

If you drop me a line with what NASA instructor told you that, I will have the chief of instruction contact him/her.

The turning mass of the motor acts to continue to move the car forward, causing the brakes to work harder and putting more wear on the motor.

The fastest way to stop a modern car is with the motor completely disengaged.</TD></TR></TABLE>

GK, you can do a simple test yourself:
run the car around the block in 1st or 2nd gear, let off the gas but keep the clutch engaged, and the car would pretty quickly come to an almost dead stop. Then try again, but as you let off the gas, press the clutch in. The car would keep rolling for quite a distance before it comes to an almost dead stop.

The lower the gear, the more drag the engine would slow the car down. That's engine braking. It's actually pretty commonly used when going on a long steep downhill. The car would go at a safe speed without dragging on the brakes.

Also I'm not sure if you have experience with driving RX7's, if you do, you would feel the difference in braking right away. Those cars "feel" like they don't want to stop, because the rotary engine is a lot lighter and smaller than piston engine and create less engine braking.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Wai &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
run the car around the block in 1st or 2nd gear, let off the gas but keep the clutch engaged, and the car would pretty quickly come to an almost dead stop. Then try again, but as you let off the gas, press the clutch in. The car would keep rolling for quite a distance before it comes to an almost dead stop.

The lower the gear, the more drag the engine would slow the car down. That's engine braking. </TD></TR></TABLE>

My friend, in your example, you have not used the brakes.

When you add the brake pedal to the experiment, it is thrown.

The rotating mass of the motor, when left alone with no brakes will surely slow the car.

However, if you are using the brakes, the brakes are trying to slow the car more quickly than the rotating mass of the motor will allow, and the rotating mass of the motor serves to keep the car moving forward when the brakes by themselves would have slowed the car better.

 

The same exact same thing happened to me once while downshifting off of an Interstate. I thought my motor esplode

Funny enough, Bbasso was behind me and thought it was hysterical

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Wai &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Dan, make sure you keep us updated on how it turns out.

My suggestion is that you should try to duplicate the problem and see if it is an one-time issue. Correct me if I'm wrong, if the PVC is clogged and popped the dipstick out, you should be able to duplicate the problem by revving the car in neutral.</TD></TR></TABLE>


I just let the car warm up this morning and reved it up to about 7k twice...kinda a throttle tap. Nothing came out so may have just been a one time thing.

Im not sure why everybody is arguing about downshifting during braking (I think people are confused of what actually is happening).

George us right: Under full braking downshifting will not slow you down any faster. If you are not fully braking then downshifting can slow you down since the rotating mass of the engine is going. So under full to the floor braking while downshifting the brakes have to stop the car and the motor. Where as if your in nuetral your just stopping the car.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by citrus3000psi &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">George us right: Under full braking downshifting will not slow you down any faster. </TD></TR></TABLE>

&lt;-- I'm with Grandpa too. j00 guys suck at braking.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by George Knighton &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The turning mass of the motor acts to continue to move the car forward, causing the brakes to work harder and putting more wear on the motor.</TD></TR></TABLE>

OK, I'm not 100% sure I'm with grandpa on this one. It's the NASA instructor party line, but I don't buy it.

GK, Here's another "test" to verify/disprove that idea. How long does it take to brake from 120 MPH down to 30 MPH? (4th gear from about redline to 2000 RPM) OK, now if you push the clutch in and take the motor to redline, and you let off of the throttle, how long does it take to get from 8000 RPM to 2000 RPM?

If you can slow the motor faster while braking than the motor would slow itself, then I agree. In 2nd gear, yeah your brakes will be slowing the engine. But in 4th gear I think it's the other way around.

Wai, Dave-- if you brake in gear, your brake bias is continuously changing as the engine decel exerts less and less force. Plus, it's very difficult to threshold brake perfectly while shifting (just the movement of your right foot would make it less perfect).

At the same time, this is all in a FWD car, with a light engine, where it matters very very very little

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by splitime &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The backpressure of the engine reving down will add an extra stopping force to the car on top of the majority being done by the brakes. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Press the brake pedal harder, dumbass. Your car is friction limited at the tires. Adding another braking source (drivetrain) isn't helping unless you really have no brakes left and are struggling to finish a session. If your brakes are sucking that bad you probably shouldn't be out.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by citrus3000psi &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">How does the bottom side of the block see pressure? Where does it come from?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Blow-by. The piston rings are never a perfect seal. When each cylinder fires there's ten billion PSI of burning gas, and a bit of that sneaks around the rings.



Modified by Chris F at 10:18 AM 6/26/2005