Ordering a kit from Ground Control. Have Tokico 5-ways and an ST rear bar. What length and spring rates would be best? This will be for a road race 89 CRX Si.

 

Ask ground control - you are going to be limited by what the shocks will handle.

Buy Koni instead and your options open up

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Buy Koni instead and your options open up </TD></TR></TABLE>

so does your wallet

just start out at 400/600 7" springs and set the shocks at 5 all the way around.

just to qualify what im saying, i started out at 450/900 on illuminas and it wasnt the shock that was the problem, it was my inexperience and 900 springs in the back (and possibly a binding rear swaybar) that probably made it harder for me to learn to drive faster and better, and ultimately found me in the tire wall at sears.

start off with 400/600, learn and then tune from there. im thinking 450/750, give our take 50 on each end, is generally what most ppl end up running.

since you have illuminas, you might also want to mod the front shocks and remove the brakeline collar to drop the shock in the fork a bit more to get more shock travel.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tyson &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


just start out at 400/600 7" springs and set the shocks at 5 all the way around.

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This is good advice. It does work.
But from my experience 600 is right on the hairy edge of what Illuminas can handle. I can tell you that they can get mighty touchy over bumps and curbs.

I'd suggest more conservative. Maybe 350-500 and let the rear bar do a little more work.

 

I have had two setups on mine. 350/400 and 400/600 I personally like the 400/600 combo the best. Like Catch said, 600 is at or near the limit for what the Tokicos can manage.

One of these days, I am going to have to break down and buy a set of Konis...

 

I've also been thinking about going the revalved Koni route lately. I'd like to get my rears up to 850# springs, but I have a feeling that there's no way the Illuminas could take it as is. So, if I'm going to revalve anyway, might as well try out the Konis that everyone seems to like.

Right now I have the GC/Illumina setup on my H4 CRX with 450# fronts and 600# rears. I bought the car with this suspension, so I'm not sure if the shocks have been revalved or not (hadn't heard of this when I bought the car, so didn't ask). I have a big rear swaybar to get the rotation I need out of the car, but it can sometimes make the rear end snap around faster than I'd like. I had blamed that snap oversteer on the bar, but now I'm wondering if it's really due to the 600# springs on the Illuminas. I've driven my friend's H4 CRX with 850# rear springs and a smaller bar and it seems to step out much more progressively and is easier to catch.

 

You can't rebuild Illuminas. They are disposable.

What I found on my Civic (with a 22mm rear bar) was that as long as the track was very smooth the Illuminas were just fine and the car handled great. But if you throw in a few bumps or hit some curbs it tend to really start to feel "bouncy" for lack of a better way of putting it.

Turns 12 an 1 at Road Atlanta come immediately to mind. Both are extremely fast and kind of bumpy. On the Illuminas the car was very scarey because it almost felt like the rear was hopping around. On the exact same setup but with revalved Konis the car is very stable and much faster in those same turns.

Some people who have driven on nothing but Konis (or other high end shocks) don't even realize those turns are kind of bumptastic. But trust me, they are.

 

Just returned from Pocono. The long course does have a few places where the car can become unbalanced. We use nothing but Koni shocks. The springs are 400-500 with an ADDCO rear bar. I will admit that the trim of the car could use some additional stiffness. However, it does rotate nicely for me. The secret for our setup is that the shocks are not set super stiff and we are using stock Camber and Toe for now. Yess, 600 in the rear will be better long term. Our kit has 7"x2.5" springs, btw.

 

Another vote here for 400f/600r for a very good starting point. You really should not compromise the spring rates because of the dampers, even if the ones that you have are not optimal. Run the appropriate springs for the car then run the best dampers that you can get or afford.

As noted above, the Tokicos are not revalvable. If you do not already have some Koni Sports and the goal is a race valved, shorter version, the 8041 RACE units are available immediately premade already on the shelf from a number of vendors who support Honda-Tech for at or under $1000 for the set of four.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CRX Lee &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">As noted above, the Tokicos are not revalvable. If you do not already have some Koni Sports and the goal is a race valved, shorter version, the 8041 RACE units are available immediately premade already on the shelf from a number of vendors who support Honda-Tech for at or under $1000 for the set of four.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I didn't realize the Illuminas were disposable (thanks Catch), so that's good to note. I'm still a noob because I bought a mostly-built car, so I don't have the experience of having to figure this stuff out while building. So now I'm wondering, are there different levels of Illuminas that you can buy? I ask because my friend with the 850# rears said that he runs Illuminas all around. He didn't build his car either though, so I'm just curious.

 

there used to be different illuminas available called "rally" versions. but not anymore and highly doubtful your friend had the higher valved illuminas from the early 90's.

but i used normal illuminas. i would not make the conclusion illuminas are over sprung at even 900 lbs. maybe im just trying to offset the public bias against illuminas....

the thing about illuminas i like is that its cheap. they dont need to be revalved, or rebuilt every year. just replace them all together for cheaper than it costs to rebuid a complete set of konis. look on ebay, a whole new set is like $375 shipped.


there is however some speculation if the RAK threaded body kits that tokico now sells with illuminas are valved higher. if thats true, perhaps they revived the old "rally" valving. but thats just totally unconfirmed. it would make an even cheaper investment if eibach ERS springs could be fitted on their perches. dont even have to buy ground controls or any other threaded sleeve. especially now that IT rules have been revised.

 

Again, this place is great - and thank you all! 400/600 at 7" it is! Now since all the experts are in the room - more questions: Camber adjustment / Alignment / Bushings? Will the drop get enough negative camber up front? And if not, is there a cheap way of getting more (eccentrics, not camber plates) What's a good alignment to start with? Is there a cheap poly kit available, and is it worth it?

For the record, this is for an ITA build on the cheap - getting it on the track for little $ is a much bigger priority than winning races.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CRX Lee &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> under $1000 for the set of four.</TD></TR></TABLE>

And this represents one of the more smoking deals in amateur motorsports. I have, effectively, these shocks. And they are very good.

Now, disclaimer: my car is an ITS/H3 GS-R so your suspension I know is different.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jake &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Camber adjustment / Alignment / Bushings? Will the drop get enough negative camber up front? And if not, is there a cheap way of getting more (eccentrics, not camber plates) What's a good alignment to start with? Is there a cheap poly kit available, and is it worth it?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Firstly, search around in the archives for these things. There's LOTS of discussion on them.

That said...in my opinion, "how much camber" can only be answered by taking tire temperatures. I run Hoosiers, at 2.2 deg of negative camber up front, and the temps are basically even across the front tires. I do have my upper control arms swapped for an additional 3 degrees of caster which helps, but regardless, temps tell you a lot.

I got my camber from lowering alone. I also have the Ground Control upper shock hats that recover some of my shock travel. Money well spent.

I'd start with zero toe and two degrees of negative camber at all four corners. That to me has always been a good starting point; I can tweak in tenths from there.

I am one of the few people here that think poly bushings are somewhat worthwhile. Do not, however, install them on the great big rear trailing arm bushing. I did, and it produced a wildly unpredictable snap-spin condition where the car would just step for no reason. Now that I'm running impossibly stiff rear springs, I'm not affected by this any longer because the rear suspension basically never compresses. But at the rates you're talking about...stick with stock.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by krshultz &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> I do have my upper control arms swapped for an additional 3 degrees of caster</TD></TR></TABLE>

I thought swapping upper control arms was a no-no in ITA?

I agree that poly bushings up front are fine if you don't want to spring for spherical bearings. The one place I used metal bearings instead of bushings was the radius rods and I felt a noticable difference in stability under braking in the CRX. They also give you some caster adjustability. I would definitely start with 0 toe and not too much camber. You should at least have it checked even if you don't change it instead of relying on the drop to give you the right amount and to make it even on both sides. I believe there are fairly cheap camber kits available that just change out either your upper ball joint or the mounting bolts of the upper control arm. You can slot the rear trailing arm for camber adjustability without buying anything. Do a search and you'll come up with plenty of stuff.

 

Again, I started out with Illuminas at 450/650. They were capable, but bumps were not at all within my comfort zone. If you run on very smooth and flat tracks, it might not be an issue.

I personally think (having run both) that the revalved Konis (especially at &lt;$1000) are well worth it. Not only is the car faster, but its more stable, safer and easier to drive.
I too used to think that Tokicos were just fine. Then I tried the Konis and got a true basis for comparison. There IS no comparison.

 

Revalved (SPSS3) konis, even on my stock ITR springs, were well worth the investment

I am stepping up to "real" (650/800) springs this year too

 

In late '99 and early '00 we ran Tokico shocks on both 350/400 and then later 400/600 springs. Two of the Tokicos were brand new Illuminas, while the other two were used Tokico "blues" race shock, or whatever name they went by. They were white and significantly thicker than the Illuminas, but have been long discontinued since then. Those were quite good, but the brand new Illuminas started leaking after 4 weekends I believe. They were used on the front of the car, at first with 350 lbs springs and then later 400 lbs springs. Later that year we made a switch to some Koni shortened and revalved single adjustable units, which were definitely right for the job and felt better. With only one rebuild job done on them throughout their life time, these shocks were good for 5 years of racing on 500f/700r springs and helped the car achieve many victories and two ARRC podiums finishes. They were still good in the car's final year (under a different owner) when unfortunately an incident parked the car indefinitely.

 

Thats a good point Alex.
I often hear that Konis have too be rebuilt yearly, but I haven't found this to be true. Mine are in year 2 (well into it) and are still working great.

If you crash alot, and hit every curb on the track on every lap... Yeah. Be prepared for lots of rebuilds.

 

well, i don't know how much harder on the shocks a season of curb banging is compared to 30k a year of daily driving new england roads, but i've had zero problems with my koni's. i'm running spring rates as high as 850 front and and 800 rear at 4.5" ride heights. lee doesn't like opening them up when i ask to have them revalved since the winter salt rusts them up real good but other then that i give

nate

 

Ack. You drive 30k per year on those spring rates? You're kidneys must HATE you.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FlyZlow &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Ack. You drive 30k per year on those spring rates? You're kidneys must HATE you.</TD></TR></TABLE>

yep. at least i used to. my kidney's didn't mind too much, but certain parts of my female passenger's anatomy were a bit more sensitive to it.