for you guys that race and is out trying to go at the edge in your FWD... do you constantly make small corrections or no? I do. it doesn't look "smooth" on the in car video when you see me constantly making minor wiggles but i asked a friend to follow me from behind and when viewed from his in car video the lines are clean.

local BMW club instructors thinks I make too much steering input and isn't smooth. i think they aren't going fast enough. sure I can drive the perfect line at 8/10 with no need to make any corrections as good as anyone else, but i want to go as fast as I can. the reason I wiggle is I do a lot of "unwinding" at the limit. when the front wheel understeers, it doesn't help to give it anymore inputs. losen up a little and the front end will bite a tad more. i learned this from autox.

hmm I'm gonna have to call up Roger tomorrow and see what he says.



[Modified by frank@b16a.com, 5:13 AM 2/11/2002]

 

The time that there is a need for wiggle is when you are driving beyond your cars 10/10. You might be able to drive beyond that. If you are wiggling before the limits of your car (loss of traction beyond a drift) then you are loosing speed.

Unwinding at the limit?? Are you unwinding at the limit and then turing back in when your tires get traction?? If this is the case turn in less from the beginning. if your car is understeering and you are in a turn, you might be better off lifting the gas a bit and holding your wheel still.

 

Parkay

I think that FF auto with high rate suspension requires a lot more imput than other cars.

Just my view.

Will

 

Truly driving at the limit requires pretty constant correction. If it looks smooth, it is, but the driver is constantly making small corrections.

-Chris, who is as smooth as chunky peanut butter....

 

I have been told by some of my instructors that I am very smooth. I make very few corrections once I am settled into my line. That is the benefit of being slow.

Now autocrossing a high horsepower RWD I am correcting constantly. Fast? Yes. The "right" way? Probably not. My agressive style did win me 2 DC Region ESP Championships though.




[Modified by Cobra, 9:06 AM 2/11/2002]

 

Every car is different, and you will have a lot of variation between what you have to do in one compared to another. However, if I'm on the track with my car and I'm "hacking" at the wheel, I just raise my eyesight a little bit. If I'm throwing in all kinds of corrections, I'm not looking far enough ahead.

It's much easier said than done, but at the turn in point, your eyes should be on the apex. As you approach the apex, your eyes should be on the track out point, etc. Doing this will put you on a smooth arch, instead of fighting with the wheel to try to force your car onto the apex point when your line would not have taken you there naturally. It's better not to fight the wheel, and remember the next time around to start your turn in earlier. JMO

Matt

 

It usually helps to think in terms of what you need to tell your body parts to do (to control the car) rather than in terms of what the car should be doing. Matt is RIGHT on about looking ahead - the first step toward starting your turn in earlier (if that is what is necessary) is to be "eyes up". I have played with this training trick and it helps build awareness of where you are looking:

1. Sit in the car with your belts and helmet on, in your normal driving position
2. Have someone march a good distance out in front of your car - 60-100 feet
3. Have someone else put their finger on your windscreen, covering up the first person's feet, as viewed from your driving position
4. Place a strip of electrician's tape across the windscreen at this level - you might want to repeat the process at the center, and both edges of your field of vision and the tape might not be level as viewed from outside the car
5. On the track, be aware of whether you are peeking over the tape (looking beyond the distance that you set with step 1) or under it (looking closer to your front bumper) if you are bold (and you don't freak out those in charge) you could even cover the area up to the line with duct tape and REALLY force your vision down the road! You can alter the distance, depending on the speed/radius of any given corner that is causing difficulty.

Having said that, the symptoms described here make it sound a little like the problem is turning in TOO EARLY, setting up and then fighting an understeering condition that might not exist if entry speed was a little lower and turn in more patient. The eyes-down-the-track thing still stands, since you have to look farther around the corner for a more efficient apex, however.

Last idea - I have found that some drivers who "fight" the wheel do so partly because of their seating position and hand/arm inputs into the wheel. You have more strength AND finesse with arms bent than straight - a LOT of people seem to naturally set themselve too far from the steering wheel, decreasing both. It is also a bunch easier to be smooth if you are "pulling the wheel" on its downhill side (left hand in a left turn, if that makes sense) rather than "pushing" it. You know how when you are trying to free a stuck nut by pushing on a wrench, you always bark your knuckle when it frees up? This doesn't happen when you are pulling on it - you don't smack yourself in the chest or whatever. Same phenomenon. I have seen big improvement in this area if students loosen their grip - completely - on the uphill hand, throughout the turn.

Food for thought...

Kirk

 

A smooth ride is what you should be aiming for. If you're pushing the tires though, SMALL inputs may be needed. I do the aforementioned corrections when pushing it, but do not be fooled. Making small corrections does not necessarily mean you are going fast. You have to feel when the car wants to slide, or rotate, or push, and sometimes you have to make minor corrections to keep it where you want.

Warren

 

I agree with you and speedracer33.

The hardest thing to relearn in looking farther ahead than normal. On the street you are forced to watch the guy in front - who is usually closer to you than on the track. You get used to this close-in eye position and it is very hard to break.

When you are on the track, the object is - you and your car will follow your eyes. IF you ever get a chance to practice that on the street (say on an exit or entrance ramy when no one is around) - get your eyes way ahead in the turn. You will find yourself following through more smoothly AND quicker. That helps eliminate the quick small corrections to force the car where you think it should be.

However, this on street practice is not recommended all the time and certainly not at speeds you would use on a track.

Just remember to adjust your eye level at the track and as much as you can on the street. Your driving will improve.

 

I don't. However I've ridden w/some pretty fast dudes, one which is constantly tweaking the wheel, and he turns some pretty good times and has a few trophies to back it up. Your question is one I want to ask the next time I see him.

 

I've been told that I'm very smooth by people who have ridden with me. When I overdrive the car however, I start to get violent with my inputs. My lap times suffer as a result.

I do make the little steering corrections that you're referring to. I don't really know why I do it, to be honest. Like most things with my driving, it just kind of happens. I expect it's something I'm trying to do to get more traction to the front wheels (no limited slip diff on my car).

 

All that matters in the end is whether you are fast or not, which will be reflected in your lap times, smooth or not.

 

i'm decently fast. consistant 2:14's at ThunderHill full track with cyclone. On old 93 A008RS, with mushy pedals (hard to threshold brake), and tired motor. ITA (what I usually bench myself against) record is 2:11 o 2:12. I know I can get there, maybe even faster with good tires and a good alignment (need more camber, I got less than 1 deg).

2:17's at Buttonwillow #1 CW config. Same times as Don Mock's ITA CRX on the same day. I was on street tires. I know I can go a little faster there.

I'll have to u/l the in car so you guys can see. I really do wiggle a lot... when I make the small movements the line of the car does not change actually. Perhaps I'm watching too much rally in cars and thinking I'm one of those bad *** motherfoo's.

People don't realize how neutral my del Sol is at medium-high speed turns. I drove a student's Audi TT Coupe (turbo FWD) and although he has H&R coilover suspension and R tires, his car definetely exhibites the classic FWD push (this is the first time I experienced it at high speed). It is difficult (compare to my car) to adjust your line at the limit. The car doesn't really want to rotate.

Porsche C4S (AWD) understeers a little bit on turn in but no problem changing that with some throttle. It is easy to drive super fast as the magazines writers have always said. I would've love to get some more seat time in that. The pedals were hard to get used to though... what's with pivoting from the floor.

 

Being fast is accomplished when you're smooth...

Jason- who has much too learn, but KNOWS this...


[Modified by darth vadeR, 2:10 PM 2/11/2002]

 

Actually, if you want a VERY challenging mental exercise on the street, try and point your EYES ahead and at the same time focus your BRAIN on both the car that's 2 lengths ahead of you, and at the same time also focus your BRAIN on the line you are taking through the corner. This exercise should translate directly into wheel to wheel racing, I'd think.

On my way home from work, there's this very long corner that's at least 90 degrees, and taken at the speed limit (45mph) takes probably 15 seconds to get through. It also wobbles (in terms of radius) a little, and decreases a pinch at the end, because the double yellow comes over and then opens into a left turn lane. Despite having driven that corner hundreds of times, I still try to look as far ahead as I can see and take a perfectly constant-radius line, coming gradually in to an apex and putting my left front tire as close to the line at "track out" as I can without feeling the "road turtle" (little bumps on the lines that seem to be a west-coast thing). It's made even harder when there's a car in front of me.

The thing I find about looking ahead is that it drastically improves both your choice of turn-in point, and also how fast you turn in. If I don't look ahead enough, I chronically early-apex turns. The more I look ahead, the later and less I turn in, taking a better line.

Then in Autocross, looking ahead is even more important because all turns are linked, and you have to see the next turn to know how fast to take the one you're about to go into and how to exit it to set up for the next one.

If you ever take the Evolution Autocross School Phase 1, the second half of the day (at least when I took it in summer 2000) is TOTALLY about looking ahead, and not on technique. You spend about half the run looking out your side windows.

-Mike

 

I'm with Drew. You can drive at the limit and beyond and make corrections and still end up with a decent end result.(Read:Drew Won) I t depends on your level of concentration and reflex.

I constantly set new track records in a Kart at a local track driving like a bat out of hell. But in Karting it is a bit different,I can feel what the car is trying to do,it's a little harder in cars as they are fitted with alot of stuff to "numb" the feel of the car.

 

Doesn't matter...smooth or not, lap times will ultimately dictate whether you are perceived as fast or not. Smoothness just happens to be a "byproduct." In other words, there is a correlation between smoothness and fast lap times, but not necessarily set in stone. You can be smooth, but that does not automatically make you be the fastest car on the track. On the flip side, you can have the fastest car on the track w/ a "smooth" driving style.

 

yep, Evolution school is good. I did phase I, II, and III when they were stilled called McKamey autox school. The secret is indeed, looking ahead. A must in autox, and works equally welling road racing.

good suggestion on practicing looking ahead on the freeway. most accidents can be avoided if you look ahead. it'll make you safer and faster.

a good analogy one mckamey teacher used was, it's like when you're parking the car, you look ahead into it, and you do a nice line subconciously and park it perfectly in one shot.

you look ahead and draw a mental line through the turn in, apex, and exit and u will naturally drive a better line.

 

This goes along with good instincts and reflexes. A person with good instincts benefits from this greatly. But if it's a tight course,like AutoX,you're still going to need razor sharp reflexes to do well.

 

Or for the rest of the sheep, the analogy with what happens when you don't look ahead, is that you look at the opening of the parking space and turn your SUV in too early and end up crooked, crowding the people on both sides, get out of your car without bothering to back and fill, and ding the car next to you in the process.

-Mike

 

I don't think I'm very smooth. I'm more of a "impose my will on the car" kind of driver. That is just my style and it is not intentional. It just developed with experience, and is my natural way of doing things.
I don't really make alot of corrections as much as I turn in quite briskly and floor it (whenever possible). If corrections are needed... OK.

Now, that said. I am 100 times smoother than the average Novice driver and 50 times smoother than the average intermediate driver. I'm about 20 times less smooth than Karl Shultz (but I'm still faster ).

It's good to concentrate on smooth when you're a beginner and let your natural instincts take over after you have several years of experience. I find I do my best driving when I'm not thinking AT ALL about what I'm doing.

 

I usualy end up having to clean dirt, grass, etc out of my car when I do that. Buy hey .. if it works for you.

 

In my S-10 pickup I am constantly making corrections also, My purpose is to try and keep the rear wheels on the ground. I think my posi is out and my inside rear wheel spins bad enough for smoke to rise in a turn. So I put forth alot of effort trying to keep the rear end down. Im sure none of this applys to FWD. I also agree with speedracer33.

 

Smooth at 10/10ths is faster than harsh at 10/10ths. Your tires only have so much to give, the more they can devote to getting power to the road the better. If you are doing a lot of extra steering input, then you are taking away what the tires have available for going forward.

Now, that is not to say that you don't feel how the car is cornering and make smooth, minor corrections (sometimes many of them) to stay on the line. But if you are fighting push and having to make lots of big corrections, you may be driving 10/10ths but you are not on the line and therefore your times will suffer.

Drive the line, perfectly and smoothly and the speed will come. When you race, you will also be the one who has some traction left in many corners to make the pass or hold your position or save you when the bonehead in front of you cooks the brakes and ends up backwards on the line.

 

Dude, Karl, you are screwed. He's using The Force! I'm changing my vote.

Warren