I want to be able to have basically a poor mans typeR or a real b18c5, whichever comes out cheaper... I have the ability to pick up a 98 gsr longblock w/tranny, distributer, ecu for 1200 with papers. Would my cheapest option be to sell the gsr head and tranny and buy a b16 head and type r tranny... or hold out for the real deal and just buy it all at once? The tranny I would like for obvious reasons and as for the head, I just need to be able to bolt an unmodified ITR intake manifold onto it.

Also as far as the block goes, pistons will be replaced and I know the crank and rods are ever so slightly different, but is there really any other difference between the c5 and c1 blocks?

 

fack 1200 for tranny longblock and ECU is a pritty good deal...


but yea, if you were to buy that, then buy a b16a head (~400-500) and then just get some cams you would come out a little ahead.

and also dont forget the foundation to good power is a good header!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SkRiBLaH &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">fack 1200 for tranny longblock and ECU is a pritty good deal...


but yea, if you were to buy that, then buy a b16a head (~400-500) and then just get some cams you would come out a little ahead.

and also dont forget the foundation to good power is a good header!</TD></TR></TABLE>

Header will come later of course

 

if you put a b16 head on a gsr block your compression with go down. not too much but if you dont do something to compensate your going backwards.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by greeneyehatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">if you put a b16 head on a gsr block your compression with go down. not too much but if you dont do something to compensate your going backwards.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Pistons are gonna be replaced, most likely with fly cut ctr, head will be milled as necessary, like I said, the reason I'm replacing the head is I need to use an unmodified ITR intake manifold.

 

just an opinion if it is a daily driver street car , go with p30 or p73 pistons instead of the ctr (too much comp)

 

Why would you sell the head? Why not just do a straight up gsr motor? They are MUCH easier to gte compression out of.............I don't understand the methos behind your madness. Do some P30's, some S2S1's with you stock valetrain for now and the car will rip. After that, direct your attention towards intake and exhaust manifold, then exhaust.

BTW, what car do you drive?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by clean rice &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Why would you sell the head? Why not just do a straight up gsr motor? They are MUCH easier to gte compression out of.............I don't understand the methos behind your madness. Do some P30's, some S2S1's with you stock valetrain for now and the car will rip. After that, direct your attention towards intake and exhaust manifold, then exhaust.

BTW, what car do you drive? </TD></TR></TABLE>

I drive a 90 CRX, and it will be a track car once the engine goes in with little street use. The ctr pistons will be combined with head milling and a nice gasket to get around 12:1 cr. Valvetrain will not be kept stock, cams will either be buddy club IVs or possibly Vs if I hear as many good things about the Vs by then. I'm basically following the H1 rules for the engine, and will be running HPDEs until I get a little more driving time logged. I liked the H1 ruleset because it seemed to really be geared towards keeping the engine running for a while, and while I doubt I'll run in H1, I think I'm still gonna have fun. Plus I could sell the engine later on as a replacement race motor

As far as the intake manifold goes, besides the H1 rules, I want to run an ITR manifold because I don't want to buy a full aftermarket one. Instead, I will be playin around with some homemade ITBS, I made them about 6 months ago with a B16 flange and they've just been sittin in my closet since. I kinda want to just see really how much of a difference they can make on a full race motor compared to the stock manifold.

Call me crazy but I've got a plan, and at least to me it makes sense lol

 

your gonna put pct pistons in the gsr then mill the head to get 12.1??? are u crazy??....pct in a gsr w/ b16 head is already ~12.9.... if you mill the head your cr is gonna go uncomfortably up.... if you want 12.1 get some aftermarket pistons or the p30s compared to the pcts

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HondaIntegraR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">your gonna put pct pistons in the gsr then mill the head to get 12.1??? are u crazy??....pct in a gsr w/ b16 head is already ~12.9.... if you mill the head your cr is gonna go uncomfortably up.... if you want 12.1 get some aftermarket pistons or the p30s compared to the pcts</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'd mill the head if necessary... and PCT in a gsr w/b16 head is around 11.7-11.8:1, using factory oversize pistons and boring .5mm should yield more like 11.8-11.9:1, this is all with an full gasket. With a 2-layer gasket I should see around 12.2:1. Same setup with P30 would be around 11.7-11.8:1 and I could mill it if necessary at that point.

 

Back to the original question though, the price is actually gonna be around 1700 unfortunately... still worth it for a full gsr swap minus axles?

 

id you're gonna be buildin up the motor, there really isn't any point in getting the type r other than knowing it is a type r....if you're gonna be messing w/ internals get the gsr....1700 is an average price for a that swap.... so you don't have to jump on this deal... and btw gsr w/ b16 head and pct pistons and oem hg will not yield 11.7-11.8... ive been there... however gsr w/ b16 head and pct pistons w/ .054" hg will get ~12.1

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mr.Saturn &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Valvetrain will not be kept stock, cams will either be buddy club IVs or possibly Vs </TD></TR></TABLE>

This has got to be one of the funniest things I have seen.....I wanna see you do this.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by clean rice &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">This has got to be one of the funniest things I have seen.....I wanna see you do this.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Whys that? I'm really liking what I hear about the IVs, and yes I know the Vs are insanely extreme. Again this car will not be a street car... it will be run once every couple of months when I get time to go to PIR for an HPDE. If this isn't the type of thing the IV and V cams were made for... what is?

Also I'm not going to be putting this all togather in my garage, when the time comes for professional work on the motor, thats exactly what its going to get. I've known plenty of people who have gone through a bunch of motors because they either didn't make the power they wanted in the first place and wanted to go higher, or they made plenty of power and blew the motor in a week because they built it quick and on the cheap. I'm more of someone personally who likes to do it just the way I envision it the first time.

For over a year I've been driving a caged street car with a decent suspension, a stock motor, and tires that shouldn't even be sold in rainy Oregon (azenis... the first HPDE was in rain, talk about a learning experience) its about time to turn it into a hobby only car and get a new daily driver.

 

pcts have a dome volume of greater than 8 cc's, you might not be able to get the most of your cams....also according to Tbone, the lobes of the spec V are huge... if this is a track car that won't be daily driven then having a high compression on high octane is reasonable... but what is your goal?? is it just something that performs similar to a type r?

 

I just read that post again... perhaps I misled people, when I said valvetrain will not be stock, the cams will be blah blah... I didn't mean only the cams would be changed

I said it that way to show that since I'd be using those cams the valvetrain would obviously have to be changed out. And I see you're a RM cam guy clean rice, I have considered some of those as well, I think I will prefer the duration of the BC cams mostly because I am going to be playing with ITBs, but will definately be looking at RM cams as I've heard nothin but good!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mr.Saturn &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'd mill the head if necessary... and PCT in a gsr w/b16 head is around 11.7-11.8:1, using factory oversize pistons and boring .5mm should yield more like 11.8-11.9:1, this is all with an full gasket. With a 2-layer gasket I should see around 12.2:1. Same setup with P30 would be around 11.7-11.8:1 and I could mill it if necessary at that point.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I hate to have to tell you but you are gravely mistaken. Based on the numbers you have, I'm assuming you used the C speed calculator. The C speed calculator doesn't factor in the actual compression height of the piston, it assumes they're all the same when in fact the PCT pistons have a higher compression height than any other B series pistons, thus further raising the compression past what the dome by itself would do.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HondaIntegraR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">pcts have a dome volume of greater than 8 cc's, you might not be able to get the most of your cams....also according to Tbone, the lobes of the spec V are huge... if this is a track car that won't be daily driven then having a high compression on high octane is reasonable... but what is your goal?? is it just something that performs similar to a type r?</TD></TR></TABLE>

My goal as far as the motor is concerned is a B18C based block with all honda internals, high RPM and high compression (~12:1). As for the head I want to use an ITR/B16 style head for the sole reason of the intake manifold bolt pattern, thats it. I want to be able to bolt both an unmodified ITR intake, as well as the ITBs I have, and be able to switch them without switching the head due to the bolt patterns. Idle is not a concern as this will be a track car, so I'm interested in cams that can take full advantage of the ITBs I will be playing with. High octane gas will be on the checklist, I don't plan to even run from a pump again after I make this commitment.

The entire point of this post was not to find something that performs like a typeR... that wouldn't be difficult. I was just asking opinions on what the smartest option would be for the money, poor mans R for the bolt pattern, or real b18c5 to avoid the buying/selling hassle of parts to achieve my goal. The bottem line here is money, I'm not looking to build a cheap junkyard motor, but saving money is always nice

 

then don't buy a type r, type r manifold will fit a b16 head ... also pump gas can be used w/ 12.1 cr... also if you are using the c-speedracing calculator to calculate pct's compression in different setup, you have to take into account piston to deck height...
im pretty sure its flush in the gsr block and .01 out of the hole in an ls

 

What I think is funny is how you plan on running a BC 4 or BC5 on stock valvetrain......to me thats the dumbest thing in this thread. **** the compression discusion, tell me how you're gonna run those camshafts on stock valvetrain? Let me guess, Packwest told you to huh??

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Kendall &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I hate to have to tell you but you are gravely mistaken. Based on the numbers you have, I'm assuming you used the C speed calculator. The C speed calculator doesn't factor in the actual compression height of the piston, it assumes they're all the same when in fact the PCT pistons have a higher compression height than any other B series pistons, thus further raising the compression past what the dome by itself would do.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Kendall is right....

There's a pretty interesting thread here:
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=717928

But I'm guessing you didn't read it.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by clean rice &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What I think is funny is how you plan on running a BC 4 or BC5 on stock valvetrain......to me thats the dumbest thing in this thread. **** the compression discusion, tell me how you're gonna run those camshafts on stock valvetrain? Let me guess, Packwest told you to huh??</TD></TR></TABLE>

Wow... did you read the first post that you replied to where it says valvetrain will not be kept stock or the reply later where I said: "I just read that post again... perhaps I misled people, when I said valvetrain will not be stock, the cams will be blah blah... I didn't mean only the cams would be changed

I said it that way to show that since I'd be using those cams the valvetrain would obviously have to be changed out. And I see you're a RM cam guy clean rice, I have considered some of those as well, I think I will prefer the duration of the BC cams mostly because I am going to be playing with ITBs, but will definately be looking at RM cams as I've heard nothin but good!"

And no the only thing I've ever called Pacwest for is to see if they sell Bell auto racing helmets or know where to buy them...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RagingAngel &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Kendall is right....

There's a pretty interesting thread here:
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=717928

But I'm guessing you didn't read it.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yup I have and Kendall helped me out also, but regardless now, this thread wasn't originally meant to be an argument of compression, I didn't even mention pct pistons til like the 3rd reply. This thread has gotten sooo far off topic that I've pretty much just given up and bought the motor, thanks for your help everyone... I sure won't have to ever ask about ctr pistons ever again in my life...