Ive just been looking around lately and all the k-swap quarter mile post ive seen dont impress me much. I mean they seem decent ,but nothing special i mean they make 200whp in stock form ,but it seems they are slower compared to a 200whp b-series engine in the same chassis whats the deal?

 

if u put a k series in ef ive it heard it doing 12's. but im not sure wut a type r would hit in an ef. and this is just stock.

 

IMO it's similar to the whole turbo/allmotor disparity between HP and 1/4 times.

For example, take 3 Civics all making the same power. One is a 200whp turbo, one is a 200 whp k series, and one is a 200 whp B series. Irrefutable laws of physics say they should at least be fairly close, with small differences due to torque and power bands (which aren't as important as peak power on the drag strip), but that's seldom the case. So what's the difference?

The guy with the keys.

How much knowledge, skill, tuning, experience, etc. does your average 200 whp turbo Civic owner have compared to a guy with a 200 whp allmotor Civic? Not nearly as much.

I think virtually the same thing is happening with 200 whp K's.

 

Stock VS Built again?

 

you can never go wrong with an H...... just my 2cents. peace

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by fsp31 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> with small differences due to torque and power bands (which aren't as important as peak power on the drag strip), . </TD></TR></TABLE>

this might be the stupidist thing ive ever seen on honda tech.

 

Well this is my debate Ive read a few post on h-t one just recently a guy posted in the appearnce and cosemtic forum about his k20 progress or something at the end he was all said and done and ran a 13.5 with a 2.1 60' to me for that price it sucks ive seen stock itr in hatch's and h22's run that.

 

Maybe it's just the driver?

There are two EGs with K20Rs running mid 12s in street trim with slicks in Australia..

We have a pro import EG running 11.8s with a fairly mild built K20R... (in NZ)

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by NAPIER &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Well this is my debate Ive read a few post on h-t one just recently a guy posted in the appearnce and cosemtic forum about his k20 progress or something at the end he was all said and done and ran a 13.5 with a 2.1 60' to me for that price it sucks ive seen stock itr in hatch's and h22's run that.</TD></TR></TABLE>

what kinda hatch?? if its an ef or eg and hes runnin 2.1 60 ' times i can understand why he would be runnin a 13.5 e.t.

 

13.5@104mph
The car def has the potential to go faster. A 2.1 60ft isn't that great of a 60ft. Not horrible, but far from great. If he was on slicks with LSD pulling a 1.8 he'd be pretty close to a 13.0. And again, this is a Stock Type-S motor. Intake/Header/K-pro and he made 204whp/155lbs.

Just to give you an idea of what a Stock Type-S is capable. AEM Cold Air/Comptech TSX Header/ Hondata K-pro(basemap untuned) in a 96 hatch on 22" slicks. Pulls a 1.8 60ft running consistant 13.0's with a best of 12.8@105mph and that was in April down here in Louisiana where it's not very cold outside.

 

IMO the k's aren't quite as quick in street trim because of the torque they have vs a b-series. Most people are just spinning there 205 street tires on the launch because of the tq #'s the k's put down. But put some wider slicks or drag radials that can handle the tq & then u've got a fast as hell car.

 

This same car ran 12.7 with street tires:

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1240259

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by therealpoorboy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

this might be the stupidist thing ive ever seen on honda tech.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm sorry you lack the ability to relate to the topic at hand. But I do find it surprising that someone like you doesn't comprehend it. We're talking about 200 hp cars here. Not world beaters or the fact that torque and powerband are ultimately very important. Since I've been racing boosted and NA hondas as long as you've had a DL, I think I have a fairly good grasp of the concepts.

I'll type slower so maybe you can understand. Why do 200 hp all motor cars tend to whip up on 200 hp turbo (or even K's as the topic started) cars in the 1/4? Well it can't be in the numbers now can it smart fella? The 200 hp turbo car would win everytime were that the case due to superior torque, broader power band, and equal peak power. Given the fact that we're talking about a drag strip, turbo lag isn't an issue because you can build boost on the line with a decent setup. But nobody with a 200 hp turbo car does that now do they? There-in lies the answer in my _opinion_.

So please, draw from your infinite wisdom and share with us the answer to this puzzling question oh poorboy.

 

A 200 hp k will be a 200 hp B. The K makes a way better power curve than a B. You hardly ever see B series integras running 13's all motor, but yet you see type s rsx's (Heavier than integra) run 13's with just intake, header, exhaust and hondata. The K is a way better motor. Yes its alot more money, but what do you expect. Its a completely different platform. I put a H22 in my civic, but if i had the money, i would of put a K in there for sure.

 

heres your original quote again
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by fsp31 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">IMO it's similar to the whole turbo/allmotor disparity between HP and 1/4 times.

For example, take 3 Civics all making the same power. One is a 200whp turbo, one is a 200 whp k series, and one is a 200 whp B series. Irrefutable laws of physics say they should at least be fairly close, with small differences due to torque and power bands <U>(which aren't as important as peak power on the drag strip)</U>, but that's seldom the case. So what's the difference?

</TD></TR></TABLE>

so your saying that peak power is more inportant on a drag strip than a power band, correct? atleast thats how i read it.

i think its great that youve been running hondas since ive had my DL. your problem is so have I. and im pretty sure ive built and crewed on faster hondas, and im a 100% sure i have more knowledge on how to get a fwd down a track.

just go back to the road race forum and leave the drag racing alone.

 

well I can say I ran almost the indentical times with my K20 that a guy ran in a B18C both ran the same tyres, around the same power, the same weight. he ran a one off 11.64 and I've run about 10 11.7's so thats pretty close, the only difference between the cars will be the rev range of a fully built B18 compare to my Stock K20A, the torque and power curve, and the gearing. You will never get a B18 and a K20 to have the same curves they might make the same peak power but the rest will be different.

 

we run 12.3 with slicks and 12.8 with bfg.

all done with full exhaust and cat. street car

 

i run consistant 12.6 with a stock k20a2 type s motor on slicks.... im still losing a LOT of traction right now since slicks are too small

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by therealpoorboy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">so your saying that peak power is more inportant on a drag strip than a power band, correct? atleast thats how i read it.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Still a fountain of information I see. I was hoping not to go OT because it's an interesting thread, but how about some facts rather than witless insults?

Here's a few questions that you ought to know the answer to given your experience in drag racing. Where do you tach when you launch an all motor honda on slicks? Do you care how much torque a wild non-vtec allmotor cam makes at 4000 rpm's? Do you consider a 2500 rpm powerband "broad"? (i don't) What's a dyno graph on a boosted 2L with a t4 (or bigger) @ 30 psi look like? Pretty useless for anything but the rarified conditions on a drag strip right? Compared to any other motorsport (sorry you couldn't give a rats *** about the rest, but I happen to be a fan of nearly all types of motorsports) conditions in drag racing are very static. Straight line, level track, exactly 1/4 mile long, etc. The end result is a focus on a relatively narrow (and high) portion of the power band... in other words "peak" power.

I'm sorry you have a problem with my semantics. But over the years, I've seen the decline of what was once a decent forum where people would "respectfully" disagree with each other and have a decent debate rather than random bullshit flame posts like yours.

 

all I'm saying in the reference to a built B18C compared to a semi stock K20 is that a built B18C will have a Peak, my K20A made 220-230whp from 7500-9200rpm thats a pretty even peak. Most built B18C's that make the same power have a peak power from 8500-9200
Also there is alot to be gained from tuning an All motor drag car better below 6000rpm, because power has a ripple effect in tuning, the more bottom end the more mid range even if you still have the same top end you'll go faster.
But sure there are some points in the power range that you don't really need to tune, but in saying that if you miss a gear etc the difference you gain from tuning that bottom end rev range may still be the difference bewteen winning and losing.
I know this well since this season I was plagued by 2nd gear issues and in the end I either had to launch in 2nd or miss 2nd and go to 3rd. which meant a 2nd gear launch landed at about 3500rpm and shifting 1st to 3rd landed around 4500. And as a comparsion from tuning that low in the rev range a run 1st to 3rd shifting I can still manage to run 12.1 @ 112mph.
But on a good run where I use 2nd the rev range I use is from 6000-9200rpm..

So in short bottom end power will help you in drag racing aswell as in circuit racing maybe not as much but it will help, Conditions on the drag strip do vary alot, Personally I think on the drag strip the most useful power you can have is the 1000-2000rpm power range away from your rev limit, having peak power in the last 500rpm is a wast of time since it hardly gets used.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Hondog &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Personally I think on the drag strip the most useful power you can have is the 1000-2000rpm power range away from your rev limit, having peak power in the last 500rpm is a wast of time since it hardly gets used.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Thanks. I attempted to communicate the same thing but you stated it much more clearly. When I wrote "peak power" I guess I didn't realize how literally the term would be taken.

Peak power to me (yes, from a rr/autox background) means the top 20 % of the rev range where torque values are typically not at their max, and HP values are higher. That provides enough "room" for a drag motor to function in, but not a typical rr motor and certainly not an autox motor. And poorboy, I haven't noticed where the "allmotor" forum was exclusive to drag racing, so maybe you need to go start your own "allmotor for drag racers only" forum.

 

well your question is pretty open. as there are alot of variables in chasis, motor, slick size, gear ratio, wheelie bars. but to answer your question using my car as an example we launch anywhere between 6-8000 depending on track and air conditions. if its a nice cool track its closer to 6 and with the shift light just a touch under 11, thats about 5k which in most forms of racing is a good power curve. and we pull the motor down to about 6700 in second so its not just a one gear deal.

while keeping a 1-2000 rev range would be nice, its pretty hard to do since 5th gear is a waste of time, and if your only using 4 gears than 1st would need to be way to long and be really hard to control at the launch.

and with turbo tech these days we can get a gt42 to spool 50+ lbs of boost by 6500rpms with a 1.9L. and most of these cars have the 10.5-11.5 shift point. and the guys using stock trannys will launch between 65-7500 and also get pulled down in the high 6's in 2nd.

most all drag racers that have a car that can handle it will launch at or a few 100 rpms below peak tq. as tq makes the car move.


this is the biggest reason why people cant get cars to launch. they think higher revs and lower pressure is the end all. last weekend we had 8.5 psi in the tires launching at 6k cutting 1.3 60's.

and i too am a fan of a very wide variety of motorsports. but if im not sure on the ins and outs of a particular one i dont act like i know everything about it.

 

I think the past few posts have proven that when it comes to Drag-Racing...the car/motor will only let you move as fast as the driver. Comparing a built motor to a Stock motor in my opinion is somewhat unfair, and I think comparing a Built B-series to a Stock K-series is quite a compliment for the K.
So to return back to the reason this post was started... A Stock K20a2 motor in a Hatch can yield a high 12 second pass if driven well.

 

alex, this is trung. check your PMs

 

I really fail to see what the issue is here..

In stock form a K will kill a B. (k20a type r OR type R)

In built form, a K will execute a B.

Please, do not read one topic n the internet and use that as a reference point for every other motor. Same with GSR swapped EGs. People have had 13 flat all the way to high 15s on a stock gsr.