225/50/15s on an ITR?
I would like to increase the width of the tires I'm using at track events. I am currently using 205/50/15 Hoosier R3S04s on 15x7 +43 offset WORK RSZ-Rs. I would like to move up to 225/50/15s. Does anyone have this setup? Will there be tire/fender rubbing using 225s with the +43 offset? Thanks in advance for any information.
1998 ITR #504
Modified by Tomcat at 12:05 AM 5/18/2005
1998 ITR #504
Modified by Tomcat at 12:05 AM 5/18/2005
225/45/15 seems to be the better choice to prevent rubbing... but I am not sure of the offsets on a 15x7 that others commonly use.
https://www.hoosiertire.com/specrr.htm
https://www.hoosiertire.com/specrr.htm
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Willard »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">225/45/15 seems to be the better choice to prevent rubbing... but I am not sure of the offsets on a 15x7 that others commonly use.
https://www.hoosiertire.com/specrr.htm</TD></TR></TABLE>
225/50R15 Kumho Victoracers had been used on all 4 corners by autocrossers on ITRs, with 5mm spacers to keep the rear from rubbing. I think this was before any 225/45 was available or appropriate for autocross. I used 225/50 15 in front, 205 in rear, with no spacers. The fronts would rub the inside of the well at full lock.
225/45 is a better choice. Not sure if Hoosiers are significantly wider and might rub. Also, wider tires on narrower wheels can feel sloppy, not sure if Hoosiers do that either.
+43 offset seems to be a good place to start!
EDIT... Hey Tomcat, based on your previous posts, you're probably trying to catch up to M3's on the straights for HPDE
... or is this for autocross? For what its worth, some rubbing for Autocrosses isn't a big deal, but more of a problem for HPDE.
-Chris
https://www.hoosiertire.com/specrr.htm</TD></TR></TABLE>
225/50R15 Kumho Victoracers had been used on all 4 corners by autocrossers on ITRs, with 5mm spacers to keep the rear from rubbing. I think this was before any 225/45 was available or appropriate for autocross. I used 225/50 15 in front, 205 in rear, with no spacers. The fronts would rub the inside of the well at full lock.
225/45 is a better choice. Not sure if Hoosiers are significantly wider and might rub. Also, wider tires on narrower wheels can feel sloppy, not sure if Hoosiers do that either.
+43 offset seems to be a good place to start!
EDIT... Hey Tomcat, based on your previous posts, you're probably trying to catch up to M3's on the straights for HPDE
... or is this for autocross? For what its worth, some rubbing for Autocrosses isn't a big deal, but more of a problem for HPDE.-Chris
The 225/45-15 Hoosiers have a 9.6" section width with an 8.9" tread width which is more akin to a regular 245 tire. In fact, the 245s (OEM) on the back of a fellow autocrosser's 04 S2K are narrower than the 225 Hoosiers on my 89 EF hatch. And they're both mounted on 8.5" wide wheels.
I have used 225/50/15 Michelin Sport Cups on 15x7 45 mm offset wheels on my ITR and there is no rubbing on any suspension component, although a few points on the inner fender show rubbing under hard trail braking. I had to remove front fender liner and roll lips on front and rear fenders, and pound flat the lip between inner and outer fender above the front tire.
When I switched to Hoosier 225/45/15 on the same wheels, I had no issues in the front end but big time rubbing on the rear trailing arm since those tire are so much wider (lots of smoke!) even though they did not rub when just rotating tire by hand. I installed H&R spacers and longer studs on the rear only, and it still rubbed on the rear trailing arm. I had to make an additional spacer of 1/16" thick to get rubbing on trailing arm under control (still a tiny bit when cornering hard, but it seems OK). Those Hoosiers are very wide (nice!),and should really be installed on 8" wide wheels to get the full benefit, as the tire is pulled in a lot by the rim, and this causes rounding of the shoulder, plus they are smaller diameter than the 225/50/15's (also nice).
When I switched to Hoosier 225/45/15 on the same wheels, I had no issues in the front end but big time rubbing on the rear trailing arm since those tire are so much wider (lots of smoke!) even though they did not rub when just rotating tire by hand. I installed H&R spacers and longer studs on the rear only, and it still rubbed on the rear trailing arm. I had to make an additional spacer of 1/16" thick to get rubbing on trailing arm under control (still a tiny bit when cornering hard, but it seems OK). Those Hoosiers are very wide (nice!),and should really be installed on 8" wide wheels to get the full benefit, as the tire is pulled in a lot by the rim, and this causes rounding of the shoulder, plus they are smaller diameter than the 225/50/15's (also nice).
I am using 225/50/15 on 15x6.5 with +40 offset on an EG without any modifications it pulled my fender lip down and did some serious rubbing on the inside. A hammer, a baseball bat, and remove the liners and I am good to go. These are RA1's by the way which, when side by side look a slight bit skinnier than the S03's.
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<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Willard »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">225/45/15 seems to be the better choice to prevent rubbing... but I am not sure of the offsets on a 15x7 that others commonly use.
https://www.hoosiertire.com/specrr.htm</TD></TR></TABLE>
i would agree...i would also add that I THINK the 225/50/15 is too tall of a tire and you will probably kill your gearing....this i know from personal experience!
https://www.hoosiertire.com/specrr.htm</TD></TR></TABLE>
i would agree...i would also add that I THINK the 225/50/15 is too tall of a tire and you will probably kill your gearing....this i know from personal experience!
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SioneSi »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">toyo makes 225-45-15 RA1's now
</TD></TR></TABLE>
who has them!?!?!?1
</TD></TR></TABLE>who has them!?!?!?1
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chad »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">who has them!?!?!?1</TD></TR></TABLE>
I do ......
I do ......
Price wise these guys are the cheapest I've found http://www.bmwwheels.com . I called them up and even if it doesn't show in there listing they could get the particular size.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tomcat »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Will there be tire/fender rubbing using 225s with the +43 offset? Thanks in advance for any information.
1998 ITR #504
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I can tell you on a stock suspensioned R with 225/45/15's, either Hoosier R's or Kumho V700's on 15x7" +43 wheels will rub. Hoosiers moreso since they run wider. They will rub the plastic inner fender liners on the front at full lock but honestly unless you're autocrossing that shouldn't be an issue, And will rub the front of the rear LCA's, kinda like a polishing buffer
. No huge issues and no need to roll fenders.
1998 ITR #504
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I can tell you on a stock suspensioned R with 225/45/15's, either Hoosier R's or Kumho V700's on 15x7" +43 wheels will rub. Hoosiers moreso since they run wider. They will rub the plastic inner fender liners on the front at full lock but honestly unless you're autocrossing that shouldn't be an issue, And will rub the front of the rear LCA's, kinda like a polishing buffer
. No huge issues and no need to roll fenders.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tomcat »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I would like to increase the width of the tires I'm using as track events. </TD></TR></TABLE>
If this is indeed for track events, you will have major issues with rubbing using 225/45/15 or even 225/50/15 if you do not remove fender liners and roll fenders, and add spacers at the back for the 225/45/15's. Loading at track events on the suspension when car is lowered and running stiff springs is very much higher than what you would run on the street or even in autocrossing. When you arrive full tilt into an uphill corner like turn 5 at Mosport or Namerow at Mont Tremblant for example, and brake hard and turn at over 1 g, tires deflect big time and suspension compresses a lot even with stiff springs, and that is when rubbing occurs, assuming car is lowered for proper track use. Driving on the street or in an autocross will never load tires like on a track since speeds are much lower and you don't deal with elevation changes while cornering. On the track you can be arriving into a corner going over 125 mph and braking at over 1 g for a long time, and that is just not going to happen in an autocross or on the street. For tire rubbing issues you have to consider that the tire distorts very significantly under load, and what looks like a no rubbing issue on jack stands can change when on the track. Take it from me, I have several tire rub marks on the inner fenders to prove it, and more of them on the left side than right. Some rubbing you can live with, and some not.
If this is indeed for track events, you will have major issues with rubbing using 225/45/15 or even 225/50/15 if you do not remove fender liners and roll fenders, and add spacers at the back for the 225/45/15's. Loading at track events on the suspension when car is lowered and running stiff springs is very much higher than what you would run on the street or even in autocrossing. When you arrive full tilt into an uphill corner like turn 5 at Mosport or Namerow at Mont Tremblant for example, and brake hard and turn at over 1 g, tires deflect big time and suspension compresses a lot even with stiff springs, and that is when rubbing occurs, assuming car is lowered for proper track use. Driving on the street or in an autocross will never load tires like on a track since speeds are much lower and you don't deal with elevation changes while cornering. On the track you can be arriving into a corner going over 125 mph and braking at over 1 g for a long time, and that is just not going to happen in an autocross or on the street. For tire rubbing issues you have to consider that the tire distorts very significantly under load, and what looks like a no rubbing issue on jack stands can change when on the track. Take it from me, I have several tire rub marks on the inner fenders to prove it, and more of them on the left side than right. Some rubbing you can live with, and some not.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SioneSi »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">toyo makes 225-45-15 RA1's now
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Good luck finding them. If you know where to get them at a good price, please let us know.
</TD></TR></TABLE>Good luck finding them. If you know where to get them at a good price, please let us know.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tomcat »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I would like to increase the width of the tires I'm using as track events. I am currently using 205/50/15 Hoosier R3S04s on 15x7 +43 offset WORK RSZ-Rs. I would like to move up to 225/50/15s. Does anyone have this setup? Will there be tire/fender rubbing using 225s with the +43 offset? </TD></TR></TABLE>
Yes, a lot of people have used 225-50-15 without a problem. Whether or not you are one of those people is going to depend on what your suspension and alignment is like.
If you are on an OEM ITR suspension, then you might do quite well with them (this refers to tyre fit and suspension movement, not the overall intelligence factor involved with using R comps on OEM ITR suspension). If you're on a competition suspension that's aligned correctly, and you are at OEM ride height, then you might still do well.
Where you'll get into trouble is if your car is lowered or you have camber kits that will cause the top parts of the tyre to rub inside in some manoeuvres. With one suspension setup I could get pretty severe rub even with 215-45-16. ("Hey, grandpa, what's all that blue smoke in Roller Coaster and NASCAR?")
On some cars with lowered suspension setups, you will get rub with any 225 section tyre in the rear at the suspension arm.
So you should be prepared to use spacers if necessary, and/or be prepared to take the baseball bat to the rear fenders and roll them slightly. Be careful, though...you just want to roll the inside lip up against the fender. You don't want to do it so much that it looks like you have a "flare"...since this is illegal for some rulesets.
As others have hinted, 225-45-15 is probably a better overall choice since you will avoid the slight gear ratio alteration and the slight ride height change that you will get with 225-50-15. It's not a huge, bad change but the extent of it will depend on the manufacturer you pick.
There's certainly more than one H1 Honda Challenge driver who's on 225-50-15 because of budget problems or a sponsor's requirements, so I know it's definitely workable.
Yes, a lot of people have used 225-50-15 without a problem. Whether or not you are one of those people is going to depend on what your suspension and alignment is like.
If you are on an OEM ITR suspension, then you might do quite well with them (this refers to tyre fit and suspension movement, not the overall intelligence factor involved with using R comps on OEM ITR suspension). If you're on a competition suspension that's aligned correctly, and you are at OEM ride height, then you might still do well.
Where you'll get into trouble is if your car is lowered or you have camber kits that will cause the top parts of the tyre to rub inside in some manoeuvres. With one suspension setup I could get pretty severe rub even with 215-45-16. ("Hey, grandpa, what's all that blue smoke in Roller Coaster and NASCAR?")
On some cars with lowered suspension setups, you will get rub with any 225 section tyre in the rear at the suspension arm.
So you should be prepared to use spacers if necessary, and/or be prepared to take the baseball bat to the rear fenders and roll them slightly. Be careful, though...you just want to roll the inside lip up against the fender. You don't want to do it so much that it looks like you have a "flare"...since this is illegal for some rulesets.
As others have hinted, 225-45-15 is probably a better overall choice since you will avoid the slight gear ratio alteration and the slight ride height change that you will get with 225-50-15. It's not a huge, bad change but the extent of it will depend on the manufacturer you pick.
There's certainly more than one H1 Honda Challenge driver who's on 225-50-15 because of budget problems or a sponsor's requirements, so I know it's definitely workable.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by George Knighton »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Good luck finding them. If you know where to get them at a good price, please let us know.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I've got them !!!!
Good luck finding them. If you know where to get them at a good price, please let us know.
</TD></TR></TABLE>I've got them !!!!
In the front I've been running 225/50/15 Kumho V710s on stock wheels with a 5mm spacer (effective offset is 45mm for a 6" rim) They fit but rub a bit on full lock at the front both on the insife of the wheel well and at the front of the inner liner.
225/45/15s fit better in the front.
225/45/15s will not fit in the back with a 45 mm offset (the outside tire in a turn rubs on the trailing arm a lot when turning hard) Also the outside of the tire runs the plastic liner on the top outside of the wheel well.
A 7" rim with a 43mm offset puts your tire about 15mm further away from the inside than mine were. So it might fit front but in the rear you now have to worry about rolling the lip.
205s are a lot easier to deal with and you will not lose that much grip.
225/45/15s fit better in the front.
225/45/15s will not fit in the back with a 45 mm offset (the outside tire in a turn rubs on the trailing arm a lot when turning hard) Also the outside of the tire runs the plastic liner on the top outside of the wheel well.
A 7" rim with a 43mm offset puts your tire about 15mm further away from the inside than mine were. So it might fit front but in the rear you now have to worry about rolling the lip.
205s are a lot easier to deal with and you will not lose that much grip.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 00R101 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">205s are a lot easier to deal with and you will not lose that much grip.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Plus, the 205's warm up faster
(Sour grapes... I kinda wish I was running 225's all around, but not that much...)
Plus, the 205's warm up faster
(Sour grapes... I kinda wish I was running 225's all around, but not that much...)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 00R101 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
205s are a lot easier to deal with and you will not lose that much grip.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Is there a general consensus of opinion on this? If there is not that much to be gained with the jump to 225's, then why do people run 225's in front and 205's in the rear? I believe I saw that Chris F is running this setup. Based on the information everyone provided, I guess I should decide for myself if the slightly larger footprint 225 is worth switching from the no-hassle 205's.
Thanks everyone for sharing your insight and experience. I can now make a more informed decision on this tire fitment issue.
205s are a lot easier to deal with and you will not lose that much grip.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Is there a general consensus of opinion on this? If there is not that much to be gained with the jump to 225's, then why do people run 225's in front and 205's in the rear? I believe I saw that Chris F is running this setup. Based on the information everyone provided, I guess I should decide for myself if the slightly larger footprint 225 is worth switching from the no-hassle 205's.
Thanks everyone for sharing your insight and experience. I can now make a more informed decision on this tire fitment issue.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by George Knighton »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Good luck finding them. If you know where to get them at a good price, please let us know.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
AFAIK they were made in limited amounts, out here i htink AIM recieved 10 or 12 sets, one of the H4 racers bought a set, and a few other H4 guys did.
im sure he still has a few
Good luck finding them. If you know where to get them at a good price, please let us know.
</TD></TR></TABLE>AFAIK they were made in limited amounts, out here i htink AIM recieved 10 or 12 sets, one of the H4 racers bought a set, and a few other H4 guys did.
im sure he still has a few
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by George Knighton »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Where you'll get into trouble is if your car is lowered or you have camber kits that will cause the top parts of the tyre to rub inside in some manoeuvres. With one suspension setup I could get pretty severe rub even with 215-45-16. ("Hey, grandpa, what's all that blue smoke in Roller Coaster and NASCAR?")
On some cars with lowered suspension setups, you will get rub with any 225 section tyre in the rear at the suspension arm.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Well, the car is both camber corrected and lowered. The car has the Mugen Lowdown suspension (drops the car 3/4", and springs are only slightly stiffer that stock); SPC camber adjusters in the rear; Skunk2 adjustable upper front control arms, and 26mm Mugen rear sway.
The alignment is as follows: Toe - (F) 1/16" total out, (R) 0; Camber - (F) -1.5, (R) -1.5. This camber setup seems to work well with the Hoosier's. I was wearing out the fronts VERY rapidly using the Hoosier recommended -2.5 in front. I have been in communication with Ausmith (Clayton) on the Hoosier excessive wear/camber issue, and we have found that -1.5 provides far more tire longevity than the recommended -2.5/-3.0 settings.
I think that if I do decide to run 225's, it will only be on the front end.
Where you'll get into trouble is if your car is lowered or you have camber kits that will cause the top parts of the tyre to rub inside in some manoeuvres. With one suspension setup I could get pretty severe rub even with 215-45-16. ("Hey, grandpa, what's all that blue smoke in Roller Coaster and NASCAR?")
On some cars with lowered suspension setups, you will get rub with any 225 section tyre in the rear at the suspension arm.
</TD></TR></TABLE>Well, the car is both camber corrected and lowered. The car has the Mugen Lowdown suspension (drops the car 3/4", and springs are only slightly stiffer that stock); SPC camber adjusters in the rear; Skunk2 adjustable upper front control arms, and 26mm Mugen rear sway.
The alignment is as follows: Toe - (F) 1/16" total out, (R) 0; Camber - (F) -1.5, (R) -1.5. This camber setup seems to work well with the Hoosier's. I was wearing out the fronts VERY rapidly using the Hoosier recommended -2.5 in front. I have been in communication with Ausmith (Clayton) on the Hoosier excessive wear/camber issue, and we have found that -1.5 provides far more tire longevity than the recommended -2.5/-3.0 settings.
I think that if I do decide to run 225's, it will only be on the front end.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tomcat »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">why do people run 225's in front and 205's in the rear? I believe I saw that Chris F is running this setup</TD></TR></TABLE>
I was trying to be regionally competitive in SCCA Solo2... and wasn't particularly successful. Hence I was sticking as much rubber as possible in the wheel well.
When I started doing HPDE's, and even with autox, it was a pain not being able to rotate tires.
YMMV.... I went to 205's because I was on stock wheels and it was just easier. Now there are some wider 205's on the market, that 15x7's handle nicely. My latest set of 205/50R15's (Hankook Z214's) are wider than my Toyo RA1's in the same size.
Good luck.... some 225's will work, you can do it. Not sure about Hoosiers though, they are already wide as hell.
I was trying to be regionally competitive in SCCA Solo2... and wasn't particularly successful. Hence I was sticking as much rubber as possible in the wheel well.
When I started doing HPDE's, and even with autox, it was a pain not being able to rotate tires.
YMMV.... I went to 205's because I was on stock wheels and it was just easier. Now there are some wider 205's on the market, that 15x7's handle nicely. My latest set of 205/50R15's (Hankook Z214's) are wider than my Toyo RA1's in the same size.
Good luck.... some 225's will work, you can do it. Not sure about Hoosiers though, they are already wide as hell.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Chris F »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
When I started doing HPDE's, and even with autox, it was a pain not being able to rotate tires.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Agreed. Either 205's all around of 225's all around. If you cannot rotate tires, you wil have to carry spare front wheels and tires at some point. For simplicity, 225/50/15 are the way to go, but for a little more pain, the 225/45/15's are the best. Just make sure your rear roll stiffness is high enough that rear tires are kept fresh to rotate to the front when required.
When I started doing HPDE's, and even with autox, it was a pain not being able to rotate tires.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Agreed. Either 205's all around of 225's all around. If you cannot rotate tires, you wil have to carry spare front wheels and tires at some point. For simplicity, 225/50/15 are the way to go, but for a little more pain, the 225/45/15's are the best. Just make sure your rear roll stiffness is high enough that rear tires are kept fresh to rotate to the front when required.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tomcat »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Is there a general consensus of opinion on this? </TD></TR></TABLE>
Well, obviously up to a point wider is better in the dry for any particular tyre compound.
However, I'll certainly agree with the other poster that most of us have too much driver improving to do to worry about an extra 0.30" of tread on the ground at each corner.
<--Just ordered RA1 225-45-15's from Phil's Tire Service.
Is there a general consensus of opinion on this? </TD></TR></TABLE>
Well, obviously up to a point wider is better in the dry for any particular tyre compound.
However, I'll certainly agree with the other poster that most of us have too much driver improving to do to worry about an extra 0.30" of tread on the ground at each corner.

<--Just ordered RA1 225-45-15's from Phil's Tire Service.



