Road Atlanta last weekend.... the leader No. 66 Porsche slowed a fair amount and got tagged from behind by Papas putting him into the tire wall.

If that had happened in a NASA Event, what would the ruling be?

Since I pay for my own ****, my natural reaction probably would have been to hit my brakes if I were in Papas's position....but that is only because I am a nice guy and wouldn't want disqualified...... if someone was paying me to race, I am sure I would have done what Papas did......

It appears they did they did find Papas somewhat at fault or they wouldn't have dinged him the $ and points.....(see below)

[i]After the race, Liddell’s camp protested the incident with Papis. No final positions were changed, but Papis was fined $5,000 and 10 points in the SPEED GT Drivers’ Championship, which dropped him to fifth with 57 points whereas he would have been third behind current point-leader Tommy Archer (88) and Pilgrim (78). Papis was also placed on probation for two races.[/]

 

I was wondering about that incident. The announcer said Liddell tried to block Papis, and while completely understandable, caused the contact. But from what I saw, it looked like the Porsche was pretty much on-line and Papis was the one that caused the contact.

 

I saw the last few laps of that race. I'm not sure how NASA would view that incident, but my opinion was Papis was at fault. Usually, whenever you get tagged from behind, the car behind you is at fault.

I thought he had way more exit speed than the Porsche and could've drove around him on the outside. Maybe Max was anticipating the Porsche to exit to his left and since he didn't want to lose his momentum coming out of the corner, he took the middle/inside line?

 

That actually sounds like a pretty reasonable penalty for a pro series.

I'd imagine in a NASA or SCCA club/amateur event, the passing car (Papis) would likewise be found at fault and DQed and placed on probation.

Although it's clear Liddell made a move to the inside to prevent the pass, I don't think he was actively blocking. IIRC, the general rule of thumb is you can make one protective move per corner and I don't think Liddell did anything on approach/turn-in. Papis very easily could have moved back outside, but that almost would have guaranteed Liddell the win (and Papis 2nd).

I know the commentator seemed to think it was a "racing incident", but I disagree.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by xtrac1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I thought he had way more exit speed than the Porsche and could've drove around him on the outside. Maybe Max was anticipating the Porsche to exit to his left and since he didn't want to lose his momentum coming out of the corner, he took the middle/inside line?</TD></TR></TABLE>

The Porsche sacrificed a bit of speed to move to the inside and prevent Papis from using his horsepower advantage to pull past. It's pretty clear what happened - Papis, knowing he has more power, set up for an inside pass. Liddell saw it coming and made a protective move to the inside at corner exit. Papis had two options at this point - punt Liddell and risk the penalty, or back down and take 2nd place. He gambled and lost - the stewards made a good call on this one.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by xtrac1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> I thought he had way more exit speed than the Porsche and could've drove around him on the outside. Maybe Max was anticipating the Porsche to exit to his left and since he didn't want to lose his momentum coming out of the corner, he took the middle/inside line?</TD></TR></TABLE>


If you look at the incar, the Porsche was VERY slow to get on the throttle exiting the corner. I don't think Max intentially punted him, he just didn't expect him to be that slow exiting the corner

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Crack Monkey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

He gambled and lost - the stewards made a good call on this one.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I agree as well.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Honda318dx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


If you look at the incar, the Porsche was VERY slow to get on the throttle exiting the corner. I don't think Max intentially punted him, he just didn't expect him to be that slow exiting the corner
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I didn't get a chance to look at the incar of the Porsche. I think Max was expecting the Porsche to be that slow exiting the corner. Max was wrong as far as guessing what side of the track the Porsche would be on while he was WFO, hehe.

 

Yeah after watching in car and replays, I'm not sure really.

I mean both drivers knew what was coming. Papis swung outside early and looked like he was going to dive bomb the inside to pass. Lidell saw this and cut inside and left Papis to stay outside throughout the turn. Papis didn't budge from his line and Lidell did seem slow or hesitant (I guess not know what to expect) exiting the turn, but he exited like normal and upon tracking out the caddy tagged his rear and spun him out.

I guess you can blame Papis because he was the Passer, but I think both knew there was going to be some kind of pass/block attempt with probable contact, just didn't know what or to what extent, but I guess that's what happens when it's down the the last lap, finishing turn of the race. You are so close, you are willing to try anything.

That seems like a pretty stout penalty, for what most called a "racing incident" before closer review.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If you look at the incar, the Porsche was VERY slow to get on the throttle exiting the corner. I don't think Max intentionally punted him, he just didn't expect him to be that slow exiting the corner</TD></TR></TABLE>

Good point, but even though he was expecting the porshe to exit the turn faster, and he did not intentionally punt him, he is still at fault. If I did that to someone I would not complain about being penalized at all, that's just the risk you take of being up someone tail pipe in a turn.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by xtrac1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Usually, whenever you get tagged from behind, the car behind you is at fault.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Didn't see the race but I think this, where it may be absolute on the street according to insurance/incident reports, is that simple as an absolute (or even Usually) in racing. I can think of myriad of scenarios where the lead car causes contact, even tail to nose. As to the original post and what the ruling would be in a protest, I would "hope" that any ruling would look at what each driver contributed to the situation and make a determination based on that. In the case of Pro Racing, it seems to me like they have alternate penalties at their disposal be it financial, points, suspensions, you risked and got dinged (points, financial, otherwise) ... all of which too have some impact in club racing, but not w/ the same financial implications as they do in pro racing IMO.

 

It looked to me like Papis was trying an outside in maneuver. Set up outside on entry, cut the turn harder, and when the leading car tracks out, you pass him on the inside. I've done that very move myself, and it works great. Liddell knew it was coming, and tried to move inside to prevent it. If you watch *really* carefully from Papis' incar camera, you can see the Porsche drifting slightly left to right (towards the inside) - a move that would have no other purpose but to block Papis' attempt. Because he tried to hold it that tight, he lost all of his momentum. Papis had already committed to that inside pass, and Liddell's left to right movement turned what would have been an acceptable (by pro racing standards) kiss on the back bumper into a pretty bad incident.

Papis was officially at fault, and for club racing with NASA should have been DQed, but for Pro racing I was disappointed to see him penalized for that.

 

I dont buy that is was Papis' for a second, if Papis really did have the HP/TQ advantage to drive right by him at the exit of that corner, he would have done it a few laps before.

The punt was not under braking or turn-in, which is the usual place for an intentional punt.
It was mid-corner, after the apex, where the lighter 996 should have been carrying more speed than the Caddy.
There is no reason for the 996 to have been that dramatically slower in that part of the corner, so it was either a deliberate move by liddell (maybe to try to make papis check up?) or a mistake.

Either way, I dont think its Papis' fault in the least.

 

This is what happened, IMHO:

Papis initially looked to the inside, most likely to intimidate Liddell so that he could get around. He popped his nose in, then Liddell took a horrible line to block Papis. Papis came back out wide to get a good run out of the corner, and Liddell was smack dab in the middle of the track. If Papis would have slowed, he would have lost the race. I think that Liddell is at fault, and yes, it was definitely a racing incident.

EDIT: Did not read speedracer33's post, good analysis.

 

If you watched the Porsche/Panoz matchup in GT2 at the GP of Atlanta, it was very clear where the 911 made a lot of its speed happen: on corner exit, with superior traction. I wonder if Liddell checked up to cause a lift by Papis and intended to then rocket away using his traction advantage. Maybe the CTS doesn't make enough power to have problems at the speeds you have exiting 9 on Toyos, but I suspect it does.

 

Show me the video. I'll make a NASA ruling.

If not I get to ask some questions.

Left or right turn?

Turn isolated or part of a series?

Cars same class?

IF so Pass for position??

Was front wheel of back car even with driver door??

Was there at least 3/4 car width room on indise of turn??

Side to side or front to rear impact??

 

Left or right turn? Right turn

Turn isolated or part of a series? Don't recall

Cars same class? Same class

IF so Pass for position?? Pass for lead

Was front wheel of back car even with driver door?? No

Was there at least 3/4 car width room on indise of turn?? Yes

Side to side or front to rear impact?? Front to rear

Video will help explain much more though, hopefully someone can find it, because Porsche sure seemed slow coming out of that turn.

Brian

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Grumpy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Show me the video. I'll make a NASA ruling.

If not I get to ask some questions.

Left or right turn?

Turn isolated or part of a series?

Cars same class?

IF so Pass for position??

Was front wheel of back car even with driver door??

Was there at least 3/4 car width room on indise of turn??

Side to side or front to rear impact??
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Right, series of two right turns from medium length straight to a long straight, same class, pass for P1, No front wheel not even under braking and during initial turn-in, not 3/4 car width, front to rear left side impact.

The incident was coming out of 7 not 9.


EDIT: Dang, people keep beating my posts, I need to learn how to type.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by elgorey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Either way, I dont think its Papis' fault in the least.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Me either.

 

Grumps,

The contact took place *after* the turn, not in the turn. The trailing car exited the right hand turn with a LOT more speed than the leader and hit him from behind. The trailing car was obviously expecting the leader to track out, and was going to pass on the leader's right. The leading car only tracked out to the middle of the track (lost all momentum) and moved slightly from left to right, presumably to cut off the trailing car's pass attempt, and the contact sent the leading car off the track and into a wall.

 

Here is what I think....

The Porsche was slow on purpose, he tried to slow Max up in the corner and to try to get a better jump onto the throttle and took the risk of getting punted.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Honda318dx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Here is what I think....

The Porsche was slow on purpose, he tried to slow Max up in the corner and to try to get a better jump onto the throttle and took the risk of getting punted. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Ditto, my thoughts exactly.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jason Franza &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Ditto, my thoughts exactly.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Only because we did that move on each other

 

In the NASA World though I am pretty sure Papas would be DQ'd......

Just looking at the different views of sport.....

 

The hit took place right as you exit T6. T6 is a decently fast (~85 mph apex speed) slightly banked turn that immediately leads into T7 (~55 mph apex speed). So there is a short hard braking zone for T7 just as you exit T6. Normally if two cars of the same speed follow each other, both taking the fast line through T6, it is almost impossible for the trailing car to dive down the inside and make the pass in T7 without contact. Passing there usually happens only with lap traffic. Papis knew this and so the only way he could have made the pass in T7 was to get along the inside of Liddell while exiting T6 and staying there going into T7. First Papis set Liddell up making him take the slow defensive inside line going into T6, and then Papis went way wide and attempted to cut in, as others have mentioned. Problem is that Liddell also knew that this would be the only way for Papis to get by him in T7, and so he slowed down enough to be able to hold the inside line through T6 and never drift out. That alone is being very defensive through there, but the little left-right wobble he had just before the incident took place may have put it over the top. Seemed like he was driving in his mirrors all this time and put his car wherever Papis' front bumper went. A moment later, and you have contact. (This contact is btw quite different than the one in the ALMS race where Liddell was punted just before the apex of T7. IMO in that one, Liddell was a lot less at fault.)

Now take the context of this race into consideration. Both Liddell and Papis are in tough situations. First Papis, being the new Cadillac driver for this year really needs to prove himself. What better way to do it than by beating out your teammates and also taking the win on top of that. This alone was probably more than enough motivation for him to attempt this pass. Additionally, I'm sure he also heard through the radio that passing the Porsche and taking the win really would be a splendid idea. For a driver of Papis' caliber and reputation, there was only one course of action in this situation and that was to go for the win, period. Liddell on the other hand, is the one guy right now giving the talented Porsche hotshot Henzler a run for his money driving the same type of car. Again, what better way to prove yourself than beating the Porsche benchmark and also taking a win on top of that. There was also no other course of action for Liddell to take other than to defend his position and win the race. This is why I think the penalty is very fitting. Papis still was awarded his win that he really wanted, and Liddell's team won the protest behind the scenes with the fines imposed on Papis.

 

Alex that is a great analysis with context of the upcoming corner and positioning for the pass, but it still doesnt explain why the Porsche was so much slower at the time of the impact.
While he did need to take a slightly slower line to stay tight, so did the caddy, so theoretically the better handling Porsche should have been at least as fast if not faster on that tighter line.