In the Bio's section you have this guy
Sam Lockwood
Car No. 17
Class H3
Machine 1993 Honda Del Sol VTEC
Hometown Atlanta GA
Sponsors Raceworks

They did not make a Del Sol VTEC model in 1993, the del sol VTEC was only advailabe in America from 94 to 97. If he does have a b16a in the car does that make it a hybrid? Or are you allowing updateing and back dating?

Thanks


[Modified by Solracer, 5:05 PM 1/30/2002]

 

technically speaking i believe he would be hybrid....but technically i believe there are others who are hybrid but will be running in their chasis class

 

I believe he'd have to run H1 as you are correct, the del Sol in 1993 came only in 1.5L non-vtec or 1.6L SOHC vtec...

 

I won't protest it running H3.. Even If I ran H3 and got beat by him, the only thing different is the motor right? There is just not that big of a difference between a 1993 and 1994 VTEC, other than the motor right, maybe brakes??

 

Im pretty sure he means Z6 not B16

 

If it's original, then he does...

 

But a Hybrid is a Hybrid is a Hybrid, right? If exceptions start to be made with this kind of thing, then where is the line? What's "too Hybrid" to run out of H1? I see "But why doesn't *he* have to run H1 with his hybrid and I do?" questions will be coming...

r2x ~ who isn't running in the series, but sees quite a hassle coming for RoadRacer and krshultz

 

I believe at one point there was discussion of what would happen if you took an integra LS chassis, and put GS-R motor, tranny, suspension, brakes, etc in it.... It would basically be a GS-R. Even though it didn't come from the factory that way, there's nothing there that would give it a signifigant advantage over a factory GS-R.

I'm thinking the same would hold true with a del Sol VTEC. Sure, they didn't offer the engine in '93, but if you take the engine and put it in a '93, it's still for all intents and purposes the same car you could get by just working from a '94+ chassis, right?

Now, dropping that B16 into a civic hatchback, which never had a B16 as an option, would be a different story.

-Mike

 

My question stems not from this particular instance (the 93DelSol -> 94DelSol or the LS -> GSR), but from the point of view of "So where IS the line?". What constitutes a "significant" swap as opposed to a "non-significant" swap, and who makes that decision? Can it be generalized to update/backdate, or will it have to be case by case? Case by case can be VERY subjective.

Edit: Thought of an example (kind of). I don't know the specs on the specific cars, so don't get hung up in that... let's say a 93 DelSol weighs 4500 lbs and the 94 DelSol VTEC weighs 5000 lbs. Put the VTEC in the 93 car, and the 93 car has a weight advantage. (yes, I know the weights are absurd, just using numbers that can't possibly be correct so noone can argue exactness of my example.)


[Modified by r2x, 2:37 PM 1/30/2002]

 

wo wo guys and gals ... put away the swords! The info in the Driver Bio section may not be 100% correct. I am not sure if Sam's Del Sol is a VTEC or an H4 car that is running in H3 becuase of IT prep. Could just be 1994 and it just a type-o.

 

you could have an advantage with a 99-00 coupe by trying to apply the idea that the engine was offered in the same car therefore you can use it, and it being the B16a from the Si coupe. I could see an advantage (though very small) coming from the fact that you could put the motor and suspension on a 99-00 coupe that never came with a sunroof, like all of the Si's did. give the chassis a little more rigidity. just a thought

Brian

 

Well if all this is true (I can't research it right now), I think the question comes down to this. Did such a car ever exist with no relevant changes? As in, the difference between a 93 and a 94 del Sol shell is nothing. In 93 you couldn't buy one with a B16A engine...in 94 you could.

If we enforce body rules in such a way that this car is in H1...then fixing damaged cars becomes a real problem. Let's say I ball up my H3 car, and find a 97 tub for 5 dollars. Well...is placing my OBD1 engine into an Integra shell that came with an OBD2 engine considered a hybrid? I should certainly hope not. This is a bit of a stretch I admit but it does serve to illustrate the point.

I'll type more on this later when I get home from work...

 

Karl hit it on the nose. I think we hashed this out in one of the threads talking about that G2 Speedvision Integra for sale.

If the tubs are the identical, we really should not be that ****. I am saving my 94 LS as a back up tub for when/if the GSR gets stuffed. No reason to have to find a tub with a GSR VIN when the GS,LS, and GSR tubs are identical for G3 Integras. I would bet that all the del sol tubs are the same as well.

 

I can tell you the differnce between the 93 del sol si and the 94 VTEC,

In fact the 94 VTEC is a better card, it has upper and lower frot strut tower bars and rear lower strut tower bar, and it had bigger front sway bar and a rear sway bar. The VTEC models in fact were a stiff chassis compared to the S, and Si

The 93-95 Si and S models had not strut tower bars and lacked a rear sway bar.

BTW I did not do this to make big deal, I just thought it would be a good discussion topic.

 

well, after looking over the rules real quick, you are allowed to change all of those parts anyways (tower bars, sway, etc). only issue i could see is if the 93's rear LCA didnt come with a hole to mount a sway bar, would you be able to swap LCA's to a 94+? another discussion thought

Brian

 

Right, but if there's a weight difference between the two cars, it's mostly likely from sound-deadening and the engine itself. I'm assuming gutting the car is legal or RoadRacer and Schultz wouldn't be doing it. So basically, there is no weight difference. If someone can document an actual difference in the chassis (like the Type-R is different from other G3 'tegs), then the question starts to look different.

If I had to write an update/backdate rule, I'd write it in such a way that as long as the chassis and important components (shift ***** aren't important, brakes, sun-roofs, other heavy stuff) make it just like a factory car, then it might as well be, and should thus be allowed. In a case where the car its becoming equivalent to runs in a different class (99-01 civic Si vs. 99-01 Civic DX maybe?, don't know the classes), I'd argue that the converted car should go in the class of the car it's equivalent to (again, assuming you took a dx and converted all the important parts to be like an Si), rather than in the catch-all hybrid class, but that's another matter. Basically, it just seems unreasonable to call something a hybrid because the only difference between it and the real thing is the VIN tag.

Take the NSX, for example. If you take a '91 NSX, drop in a 97+ motor, transmission, and ECU, you have a car that's the same as a 97+ NSX coupe. The only difference would be the center console armrest and the lack of a passenger airbag. Otherwise the cars are identical. Now, the '91 will still have a weight advantage in a class that doesn't allow interior removal (because of the airbag). However, once you gut the cars, there's absolutely no significant difference between them. So if in fact all NSXes are supposed to run in the same class, it seems perfectly reasonable to allow an update like that. (this isn't the best example since the NSX runs in H1 anyways). Actually, I messed up, because the 97+ also has slightly bigger brakes, as well. But anyway....

And it should be the burden of the car owner to prove legality, and all that. For example, documenting that it's the same chassis, and that all part numbers on the car deemed "important" (by some other set of complicated rules, probably) are the same as the part numbers on the car it's trying to be like from the factory.

You are right that there needs to be a line drawn. But IMO, the ECHC is at a big advantage in that category, because they're all hondas, and the model differences are well known and documented, so it should be easy for someone to make a very clear argument as to why or why not a car is legal.

-Mike

 

By tub .. we mean the unibody .. aka the shell. Sway bars and strut tower bars are free in all HC classes anyways.

 

Yup .. listen to Mike .. he gets it.

We are not talking about if trim level A came with different springs, sway bars, colors, shift *****, etc from those of trim level B. The root of the issue is if the tubs (aka unibody, shell) is the same for trim level A and B. Like they are for the G3 LS,GS, and GSR Integras.

 

so swapping the LCA's from a non rear sway bar equipped car to LCA's from a car that had rear sway bars would be ok? this is of course if the cars that didnt have rear bars dont have holes for the sway bar to mount. just curious

Brian


[Modified by Brian*Black99Si, 8:02 PM 1/30/2002]

 

Ok, here's another example I do know something about... Miata's

90-93 M1 has 1.6 engine. 94-97 M1 has 1.8 engine. 1990 Miata with a 1995 motor in it, to me, would be a hybrid. The 1990 car wasn't offered with a 1.8 motor. Therefore, to me, it's a hybrid.

1995 Miata with a 1997 Miata motor in it. It's the *same* motor so there wouldn't he a hybrid issue here.

r2x ~ who really should have kept quiet as she isn't running the series.

 

Again .. we are talking about tubs .. not LCA, sway bars, shift *****, etc. The answer to your question is .. "Does HC allow swapping of LCAs for the class you are running in?"

 

As far as I know the Shells are the same the only thing that seems to stiffen the chassis is the additional strut tower bars.

So does that mean if I took a 94 del Sol S which is a light body due to the fact, that it does not have power sterring and some did not have power door windows. If I stuck a b16a in and did everything else to make the car competitive then I could run in H3 instaed of h1?

Thanks

 

oh yeah, i know you are talking about the tubs, this is just another thought i had. and i looked over the rules and there isnt a mention of lca swapping. its just a minute question from a nobody who isnt even involved in the series, dont need to spark a big debate over it.

Brian

 

IMO.....

Yes, unless there was no difference between the tubs of the 1.6L and the 1.8L. If the tubs were identical, and the only difference is the engine, then the car should be classified according to engine, and not considered a hybrid. If the 1.6L shell was also lighter, then it's a hybrid with the higher output engine. Why? It's the same car.

Going further, I would say that if there is a performance *disadvantage* to making a swap, it should not be classified as a hybrid. Sticking with Diane's Miata example... If the 1.8L shell weighs more, and somebody puts in a 1.6 engine, they should be able to race it as a 1.6 provided there is nothing else in the 1.8 that would give the car an advantage. It would have the same engine as the other 1.6L cars, but weigh more.

Matt

 

Sheeesh .. trying to complicate things with your darn Mazdas.

For simplicity let us assume that all M1 Miatas are IDENTIICAL except for the motor. If you stuffed your 97 1.8L, what would be the problem with putting all the parts into a 92 tub? I say nothing.