yes yes yes...im still trying to weight all the pros and cons of all motor v/s forced induction. I must say this I was all preaching all motor for the longest for the ITR until I took a ride in my friends hatch with a GSR motor/JRSC. Amazing.

Yeah its a lighter car, but all he's bought was the jrsc, upgraded pulley, cam gears, boost retard, fuel pump, BTM, kamakaze header, and some gauges and hes making over 215hp to the wheels with NICE torque. Hes had the charger on for over 20,000 miles with no problems, no losing oil, nothing.

I keep reading all the Toda people talk about the cams, yet still seem to dyno well under 200hp. I know there are some people on the board putting out over 200hp, but for the average person who isnt doing their own install and tuning, making that kind of power will cost more money. It just "seems" like the JRSC route would be cheaper, just as reliable, and give even more power...if done correctly. And NO this isnt any kind of flame, I know most people here hate the JRSC....to each their own...im just trying to compare prices.

I know labor will be tough to compare, but lets try.
Ok on one side you have all motor, the other forced induction..this case being JRSC but possibly turbo.

Ive come up with a cost of going JRSC with all nessasary parts and the total was about $3500...and this is on new stuff, but not everything being retail cause as you know like most everybody, we all have hook ups some where.. You can find used JRSC for well under $2000. And that will drop the price some. You can buy other stuff to work with the JRSC, and that will raise the cost some. I did an all motor estimate with Toda B's, gears, springs, VAFC, installed and came up with about $2000...this is with out tuning and without any kind of ecu program etc.

Post any other things im missing and your costs (if you dont mind) here.
thanks.

 

I stole all my parts ...

Just kidding.


[Modified by coquinn, 12:03 PM 1/30/2002]

 

TJ - $2,000 for Toda package sounds about right. With a B package there shouldn't be a much mysterious to make ~190hp w/ help from Ken's current setup.

As for JRSC... I don't know, I truly believe that C5 was designed to be NA tuned. If I wanted to boost, then I would get a C1 in a hatch... just like Mark.

Either way you choose, it's not the most cost effective way to make over 200HP... just get a 240SX and drop in a SR20DET.

 

$2000 does sound about right for an all motor setup with the B's. You might be pulling the same times all motor with this setup compared to SC'd.

 

Cams 1000
Springs 300
retainers 150
pistons 300
machine work 500
bearings/gaskets 300
field vtec 200
custom chip 800
header 900
slicks 250
dyno 300

Total 5000

I dont pay for any install/tuning labor.
And my car will pretty much tear the pants off of just about any JRSC setup you can find.

 

6000 euro for the current setup (almost 190whp, I`ll know numbers next week)

coming soon: another header/cat/b-pipe =>2500euro
suspension upgrade => 2500euro

0,88 USD = 1 Euro

I know it`s expensive, but that`s a good reason to improve my business..

all motor / forced induction - Want my opinion ?

It`s a question of philosophy. Engineers did almost everything to create a powerful n/a car with a 1,8l engine....

If you like to race, than it´s fun to race other na cars and let the f/i cars stay in their own...

But if you want the seat pressing torque, well... than go and get another car... Lancer evo VII or so.

Three days ago I enjoyed a ride in a friends Turbo-Kadett (not common in US, Opel is owned by GM)
It looks like this:

[IMG]http://www.kadettgsiclubholland.nl/images/Ernst.jpg[IMG]


440Nm of torque, 300+whp.... Killing Mercedes 500SL and Porsche 911...

But I say NO..... for me, f/i is cheat.




[Modified by Maijk190, 6:31 PM 1/30/2002]

 

Nitrous kit - 500.00, purge kit for scaring people away 95.00, two chipped valves and a new head gasket - 150.00

 

hahahahaha, tell em you mad son !
jahahahahaha
when she gonna be back on the road?

 

Your sig doesn't instill confidence in that setup.

 

Set of B's
Cam gears
4-1 header
2.5 cat
V-AFC


190+ whp..........................

 

B20 block = $800
Eagle rods = $325
Endyn pistons = $530
bearings/seals/new oil pump, etc = $450
stock B16A2 head = $400
ITR cams = $400
GSR girdle parts/oil pan = $200
Header = $400
ITR manifold = $200

Thats about $3700 right there...plus I left out a few things that I cant remember.
Of course for someone who already has a VTEC motor..it would be much cheaper

I recommend getting the B18C sleeved to 85mm vs going B20

 

I've tried 2 different cams and came back to the stock ones. I personally think superchargered is cheaper power than all motor but type r's are all motor cars, that's why I decided to stay this way, I'll have some dyno numbers in about a month. I need to replace the stock ECU though. Anyone reprogram p28's for a good price? I have that and the harness.

 

What two other brands of cams have you tried and why did you go back to the stock ITR cams?

 

I tried Toda spec b's and before any internal motor work i was putting out 182hp after tunning the car on the dyno, I needed either a computer program of a FPR looking back now, with just bolt ons the stock cams dynoed at 173, then i tried the crower 403's which i'm trying to sell right now, they felt like they made great top end power but i didn't want to have to rev as high as needed to take full advantage of them.

 

$3500 for parts to add a jrsc to your car is a little ambitious, but do-able if you find great prices. A very good price for a new jrsc is $2500. Add $150 for an intake, and $1200 for an engine management system (I wouldn't install a jrsc without one). This should get you around 200whp.

If you upgrade your header/cat/exhaust, you can hit around 215-220whp.

If you increase the boost, you're looking at buying things like a pulley, fpr, upgraded fuel pump, injectors, and j&s to get you around 250-260whp.

 

If you're running an engine management system that's complete with a timing retard feature, wouldn't you just need injectors to go to more boost? It seems to me that the whole point of an engine management system is to get rid of hack jobs like rising rate regulators, VAFC's and J&S safegaurds.

 

J&S isnt a hack job, its a good thing to have.

adjustable FPR and upgraded pump are good to have as well

 

It's a hack job from the standpoint of having to splice it into your stock wiring vs. having an ECU that can do the same thing.

The point of the question is: I just ordered the AEM Plug and Play system, which is advertised as being able to retard timing based on both boost level and knock count. In other words it performs both the functions of a BTM and a J&S as well as giving you direct control over the fuel injection system. With that level of control, I don't see why a J&S or rising rate regulator would be needed.

Upping the pressure on a fuel injector causes it to wear out more quickly and creates a potential blown engine from a locked injector. A better solution, IMO, is to use bigger injectors, a better pump (which I already have) and have the ECU deliver the right amount of fuel without having to strain the injector at 100% duty cycle.

Maybe I'm off base here, if I am could someone explain why?

 

True in your case a J&S would not be needed. But with the hondata, being that it
is based around a stock ecu that doesnt have that capability, its good to have.

I agree with you 100%. However there are those situations where you just need
a little more pressure to allow the duty to be reduced a bit. Raising the pressure
up to 60psi is perfectly acceptable. Any higher is not good i agree.

 

OK thanks.

So a decent regulator would still be a good idea, just to be on the safe side. Gotcha.

It's nice having a board with people who know the car, I'm sure I'll be full of questions over the next month or so. Considering I'm one of the first people with this ECU, I'll have to figure out most of it on my own but it's still nice to be able to ask general questions.

Edit: lowereing pressure is one of my main goals. I only have an underhood B&M gauge but when I was on the dyno watching it from outside the car, it hit nearly 100 psi under full boost.


[Modified by newt2, 1:39 PM 1/30/2002]

 

good luck buddy

 

I did the supercharger route for about a year and a half and if I had to guess I would say you would need around $4000 to be safe. I made 235+hp and 159tq with this:
8lbs boost
water injection
short ram intake
J&S
OBD 1 stock GSR computer
Kami header
mugen exhaust
test pipe
if I had to do it over again I would buy a used SC and send it to Endyn and have him rebuild it with his magic and get a standalone ecu.

scott

 

I don't ever add up receipts anymore, Did that about 8 years ago and havent done it since. Car $4000 (87 Formula 350) (I didn't even have a mullet or smoke???) Go fast goodies $6000, owned the car 8 months and sold it for $5500 and it still was slower than my ITR now
Thats why I don't add up receipts.

Mattj


[Modified by Dropspeed, 5:37 PM 1/30/2002]

 

....well, imho i can't really speak because:

1. my opinion is obviously biased.

2. i'm not done yet.

I'd definitely like to take a ride in a 260+whp itr and then i'll let you know.

But talking to guys like Greg, Jeff, and Steve it seems that although the sc cars put down better numbers they're slower at the track... I'm not really one to talk though - my et's suck.

 

look at Miguels set up SIINS , his making 205whp and running 13.4 on street tires