I've been trying to add my $.02 on this topic for 3 days. Thanks to Honda-Tech.com for finally getting around to sending me a new password. To be honest, I was pretty embarrassed to see what both Honda Challenge and BMWCCA guys were saying all over the internet. I am not sticking my head into the middle of a flame war but since I was the one that sent that video to the West Coast Honda Challenge guys and was given it by Paul Kramer who posted the video initially, I think I’m entitled to address this. By the way, I sent the video to Flaherty because I was adding an outsider’s perspective to the contact in turn 1. (SAM - Beware of the bobble head!)

1. It’s not hard for an H4 car can to run with the M Coupe and other BMWs. The Coupe (in its required stock form at 3100 lbs., with single adjustable Konis and stock interior) is by no means a fast car around Buttonwillow. Not to mention the horrid entry push. I should know as I drove one at the Runoffs last year and got waxed by nearly every other car out there.
2. Whoever thinks that Honda Challenge guys are butchers has never run in BMWCCA and vice versa. I ran nearly ever H4 race in Honda Challenge last year in So. Cal. I saw some seriously poor decisions but I also saw them at east coast BMWCCA races too. Every single club racing series in America has its fare share of guys that park the car in the corners and those that drive the rally line right back on track in front of you. And there are those guys that just make poor judgment calls. It's all a part of racing and learning to race. Ever raced with some Factory Five cars????? (don't get me started! sorry Johnny Mac!)
3. And what’s this about 8 incidents of contact? Who’s blazing the *****les and spreading stories? With close racing comes contact. Just ask Edik how many tire marks we gave each other last year as a tried to hold onto my lead in the points championship. It happens! Get over it!!!!!!!!!!!!

Maybe my post is late and it maybe it’s about a topic that's been beaten around a bunch this week. Maybe it’s because I’m suffering serious racing withdrawal with no ride this year. But when I see guys talking **** about 1 series vs. the others, I need to add some input from someone that’s run both on both sides of the country.

The Copper Topped Jackalope

P.S. PLEASE FIND THIS CAR A HOME!
http://www.roadfly.org/bmw/cla...30931

 

Well, from my perspective as unbiased as it is since I am a proud BMW street car owner and Honda racecar owner, the BMW drivers in this race were fast in the straights and valet parking in the corners. Unfortunately, the WCHC drivers are fast in the corners and slower in a straight line except for maybe one H1 car. So this all made for an interesting race especially considering Sunday's crash fest. In addition, at least one of the BMW drivers was not comfortable with emergency crews at on the track and the blazing fast Bernardo Martinez doing some Beemer schooing on Magic Mountain. This close track encounter caused the BMW driver to become scared - in the words of the crew chief - and caused the crew chief to go aftrer Bernardo after the race. Not too smart this crew chief. Anyways, I could go on but I'll let other speak.

 

I don't have a BMW, nor have I ever had one. However my brother and my parents both drive BMWs, and I once totalled one on a racetrack that had an issue with accelerating from a dead stop. Coincidentally, I also knocked fenders with another BMW on that very same weekend, that sent it nose-first into some armco, though the race stewards agreed that I wasn't at fault for either incident. Wait, was there a point to this message?

Matt (who shouldn't post while sleep deprived)

 

I guess I might as well add my 15 cents to this discussion since Matt chimed in and so eloquently made his point.

My background was initially with PCACR, then on to NASA (pre-Honda Challenge Days). So I have experience with 13/13 racing as well as the races NASA puts on. I've now moved on and am racing in Grand-Am. So I've see every level of driver imaginable.

The simple issue here is, BMWCCA and HC are CLUB racing. These aren't professional series. In fact they aren't even close. Thats part of the problem though. You do get several guys that are significantly faster and in significantly better prepared cars than the majority of the field, and when compared to the bottom 1/4 of the field, the disparity is almost scary. The onus in this case is on the faster driver IMHO. If you want to truly duke it out in the corners with other guys that have a high level of car control you either need to go race Nationally with SCCA or you need to pony up and run in a professional series. By running in a CLUB series you are accepting certain risks and making certain concessions.

Personally, I wasn't willing to make those concessions on a regular basis so my friends with NASA on the east coast rarely see me anymore (if ever) at their events, same holds true for my friends that run with PCA. I don't like having to take it easy on the guy in front of me because he might not be able to handle having a nose stuck in on him in a 100+ mph decreasing radius sweeper. So when I do come out with PCA or NASA, I really don't drive 10/10's, or even 9/10's.

I guess the point to my post is that the onus is on the better driver to recognize that many of those around him aren't as skilled and its his responsibility to a large degree to keep everyone safe (at least with respect to contact with his/her car). That means not making moves he'd like to make, it also makes anticipating boneheaded moves by less experienced drivers a mandatory skill. If you don't like it, race someplace else as thats part of CLUB racing that isn't going to change.

 

I agree to your $.15 except for one thing. I've run in NASA, SCCA, BMWCCA, PCA and Grand Am Cup. Like i said in my initial post...every series has its share of butchers. Grand Am Cup is no different especially when you consider the fact that anyone with a checkbook off the street can rent a ride and have a license handed to him. I think that throughout the arena of motorsports, there will always be impatient people that make stupid moves. It's been so bad at times that i've been in a crowd of 60 cars at Daytona, wishing i was at an SCCA National, not a GAC race.

Just a thought.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PorscheRacer &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I guess I might as well add my 15 cents to this discussion </TD></TR></TABLE>

You can tell a Porsche racer, even his advice is marked up from 2 cents to 15!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by speedracer33 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

You can tell a Porsche racer, even his advice is marked up from 2 cents to 15!</TD></TR></TABLE>

BWAAAHHHAAAAHAHAHAAAAHAAHAAA That is great

 

I'm not saying there aren't very poor drivers in GAC, there most certainly are (though you'll see that in the Rolex Series, the ALMS, and anywhere else a ride can be "bought", which if you didn't know is every pro series in the world).

My point was that in a CLUB event, the responsibility of the very good drivers changes. They have a certain level of responsibility for the other cars on the track. That responsibility doesn't exist in GAC. Simply put, a lots of guys don't recognize this responsibility when at a club event and drive like they are in a pro race. Thats dangerous and even though technically a younger/less experience racer might make a boneheaded move and cause a wreck, its not necessarily the inexperienced racers fault, the experienced driver shares fault (whereas in a pro race they wouldn't).

Example, I generally won't stick my nose under someone in a PCA race at Roebling Road going into T1 unless I've already determined they have enough sense to not take us both out and won't panic and end up in the tire wall themselves, its simply not worth the risk to someone else who might not have the racing experience yet to handle it. I have no hesitation about putting my car an inch from any competitor in a GAC field going into T1 at Daytona (or any other corner for that matter). In GAC, its their responsibility to keep their car in one piece and unless I make contact with them, I don't worry about where their car ends up.

On your boneheaded move comments, that'll never go away in racing. Saw plenty in the Rolex race out at Fontana. Part of it is a lack of experience, part is a lack of talent, and part is an overabundance of pure stupidity. Typically its a combination of all three.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Cochise &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I agree to your $.15 except for one thing. I've run in NASA, SCCA, BMWCCA, PCA and Grand Am Cup. Like i said in my initial post...every series has its share of butchers. Grand Am Cup is no different especially when you consider the fact that anyone with a checkbook off the street can rent a ride and have a license handed to him. I think that throughout the arena of motorsports, there will always be impatient people that make stupid moves. It's been so bad at times that i've been in a crowd of 60 cars at Daytona, wishing i was at an SCCA National, not a GAC race.

Just a thought.</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PorscheRacer &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I guess the point to my post is that the onus is on the better driver to recognize that many of those around him aren't as skilled and its his responsibility to a large degree to keep everyone safe (at least with respect to contact with his/her car). That means not making moves he'd like to make, it also makes anticipating boneheaded moves by less experienced drivers a mandatory skill. If you don't like it, race someplace else as thats part of CLUB racing that isn't going to change.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah. What he said.

 

i just have a few questions.

how many of you have actually seen clear footage, or were there to witness what happened?

thawley problably was, how about the rest of you? and Is the only video you guys have seen the BMW drivers? and ediks?

i have seen other video's, and ;you get a big perspective on what did happen.

Im sure teh people that were there have an even more accurate account of what went on.

now im not saying that the contact was accebtable, but from the way some people are talking about how it was some how intentfull or, at least thats the feeling i got.

Also there wasn't 8 crashes in HC.


after re-reading my post i just wanted to say that these comments weren't directed towards ANYONE directly, just in general.

 

I was on Magic Mountain and even caught photos of Bernardo's pass on the BMW driver that caused such a fuss. I was 20 feet away from where Andrie and Ryan got together on the hill. I guess I had about as good of a view as anyone. And, BTW, John Thawley was at the track Saturday but not Sunday.

 

aa didn't know you made it out.

Again maybe my comments were alittle to direct, but i saw this turning into another "mid-ohio".

ever get any of your photos online?

 

After restarting (after engine died unexpectedly) in Sunday's race, I was trying my best to go two wheeling ont he hill. Get any pics Johnny Mac?

 

I'm going to throw this out there, and its probably going to ruffle some feathers, but its based on what I've observed over the past few years.

Note: this just takes amatuer club racing into account. Pro racing can be a different animal.

First off (and here come the feather ruffle), NASA racers tend to, in general, be slower than SCCA racers. If you look at average race laps, fast laps, etc for similar cars at the same tracks, you see than the top of the SCCA grid is faster than the top of the NASA grid. And many of the fastest NASA guys are visiting or EX SCCA guys.
Look it up, compare the numbers before you get upset and start arguing. Compare ITS lap records to H3 lap records. Hell, compare ITS lap records to H2 and H1 lap records (keeping in mind that H1 and H2 *should* be ALOT faster). Compare ITB records to H5... Compare Spec Miata records NASA vs. SCCA.

I don't bring this up to bash NASA. I bring this up as a clear indicator that there (in general) is more skill and more experience in SCCA. It makes sense, SCCA has been around for 50 years and NASA certainly hasn't
NASA very often fields FAR fewer race cars on a weekend but still has nearly as many incidents. Its experience. Experience and skill level.
Example... NASA is young and the vast majotiy of its racers is young. So who's the mentor? How do you improve surrounded by folks just as green as you are?
I think this is an issue in Honda Challenge on the East Coast. A few experienced drivers have trickled in from SCCA and elsewhere in the last few years, but for the most part its hard to find an ECHC racer with more than 5 years of W2W experience.
So when newbs are racing newbs... Whos teaching and whos learning?
Most NASA race incidents I've seen here on the East Coast were just bad decisions. Wrong move, wrong time, lack of experience. Can't speak for the West Coast.
Remember, HPDE doesn't teach you how to race and it certainly does not teach you how to set up and execute a clean pass at the proper time.

I've done both, and as I've mentioned many times I pretty much 0wned in my NASA racing, then went to SCCA and got just plain skooled. The big difference was now I was racing guys with 10 to 30 years of experience as opposed to 1 or 2.

Are there buttheads in SCCA... Oh you bet your *** there are. Lots of them too. You just try to stay away from them, and if you're up front in your class, you are usually surrounded by guys who are really, really good (in your class).

NASA also seems to have quite a few people that come in from SCCA, BMWCCA, PCA, etc because they got their asses regularly kicked with the other groups (Hey Bookler, remember your buddy in the Showroom Stock Neon?). So it can sometimes become kind of an unwitting racers refugee camp. You gotta watch out for those people.

Just my $.02 having experience with both groups. I know many will disagree, and they are entitled to that, but I really think NASA (especially the ECHC) would benefit from more of their drivers (like Zsolt) doing an occassional SCCA race, especially at things like the SARRC/MARRS Challenge and the ARRC. You WILL see a whole new level of driver skill and experience. Zsolt, Karl, Adam, Ginsberg, Me... We can all tell you that. Racing with those guys makes you better.

PS - I've only seen a couple of BMWCCA races, and they seemed fairly unaggressive to me. (BTW - Aggressive does not automatically equal "bad" in racing.)

 

You could be right.

 

Observations about the issue in general from 20+ years hanging out at race tracks: Apply - or ignore - them to this specific question as you see fit...

Marque club racers are generally richer and have more money invested in their cars, than the typical club road racer in an econobox. The price of a mistake is higher, and they chose their ride out of love for the brand rather than because it was the right tool to get to the front. Fast regional racers treat their racers as a tool.

The level of competition - some total of driver skill, agression, and motivation - is generally lower at a PCA/BMWCCA/etc. as well. The guys up front are simply not as fast, as a rule, as the guys up front in a large SCCA Regional class like Spec Miata, ITA, or whatever, relative to the theoretical potential of the hardware.

I have seen more than a few cases of tweaked titty when an outsider shows up at a marque timetrial in an inferior Japanese or lesser German car and beats up on the regulars. I remember an Alfa club event where a guy was told that, from now on it wasn't enough that he was a member: He had to actually OWN an Alfa.

When that dynamic happens in a door-2-door setting, things can get difficult, primarily because the fast marque guys are often making their time with dollars on the straights, and the fast crapbox people are getting what they can out of ******** and elbows in the corners.

I don't have enough information to comment on the specifid case in question, and that video was chock full of opinion without any substance, but there you go.

K

 

I was there Saturday, not Sunday, and watching the HC race with keen interest. I own and race a pro7, with a vision of moving on. What I saw was bad driving...
M.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mtm68 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I was there Saturday, not Sunday, and watching the HC race with keen interest. I own and race a pro7, with a vision of moving on. What I saw was bad driving...
M.</TD></TR></TABLE>

What did you see that was "bad driving" on sat ? not trying to start any flames or anything, but all I can recall at this point was one incident at the start of the race.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Johnny Mac &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Well, from my perspective as unbiased as it is since I am a proud BMW street car owner and Honda racecar owner, the BMW drivers in this race were fast in the straights and valet parking in the corners. Unfortunately, the WCHC drivers are fast in the corners and slower in a straight line except for maybe one H1 car. So this all made for an interesting race especially considering Sunday's crash fest. In addition, at least one of the BMW drivers was not comfortable with emergency crews at on the track and the blazing fast Bernardo Martinez doing some Beemer schooing on Magic Mountain. This close track encounter caused the BMW driver to become scared - in the words of the crew chief - and caused the crew chief to go aftrer Bernardo after the race. Not too smart this crew chief. Anyways, I could go on but I'll let other speak.
</TD></TR></TABLE>


Exactly. I have driven both of the "cars" in question here at a very quick pace. A stock M3 should be VERY capable of running near H4 times, and then you add some race tires, and prep, and lower times should be no problem.
The BMW's were just extremely slow. PERIOD. Not sure what they are so fussy about.
BTW, I was there on sunday, not Sat! The contact that was made was really not that big of a deal. A few racing incidents is what I saw. Just a few instances of "wishful" thinking!


I will say this about the guy yelling at Bernardo. What bad form. He drives over in his gold cart and starts to yell at Bernardo. Saying things like "Your a fu**ing idiot! Do you even know how to drive". "You scared my driver going into magic mountain with that dumbshit pass". "Get out of your car right now and we will settle this"! He kept going on and on.
Well, 2 things here. First, if you get "scared" by someone passing you during a race, then you belong back in the HPDE groups for a tad bit longer.
Second, I am not sure what this so called "crew chief" was thinking, but obviously he had seen one to many nascar races. I have never seen such a poor display of judgement in the pits. IMO, it was not even his place to say anything. If the driver really had a problem with anything, then he should have taken it up with Bernardo himself.

At any rate, I really wanted to say what I though about that because it was complete bullshit!

I for one look forward to racing in HC!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by prkiller &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Well, 2 things here. First, if you get "scared" by someone passing you during a race, then you belong back in the HPDE groups for a tad bit longer.
Second, I am not sure what this so called "crew chief" was thinking, but obviously he had seen one to many nascar races. I have never seen such a poor display of judgement in the pits. IMO, it was not even his place to say anything. If the driver really had a problem with anything, then he should have taken it up with Bernardo himself. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I agree! you should be able to be passed without any problems.

That was bad form of the crew cheif not matter what car the guy was in. I know I was upset at the driver that "tapped" me in the race on sunday. But I got over it, and when I talked to the driver I was civil. What's yelling going to get you?

O well that weekend is over and only 4 weeks till im back on the track..

 

My thoughts copied from what I said in the other thread.

I watched the video and honestly I am kind of disheartened by the opinion of the person whose in car footage it was. I am not familiar with the BMW guys so I don't know who it was. I've been an avid follower of HC for a while and I know they like to keep the racing clean and fun, last year they raced with the Porsche guys and it was mostly incident free after a bit of bad blood between both groups in years past. Accidents happen in racing, I am sure most of those incidents were not intentional. Why would anyone want to jeopardize their vehicle and the vehicle of someone else because of a rush of blood to the head.

Comments like the ones made on the video reflect poorly on the racing community as a whole. If the driver whose car it was reads this then I hope you will realize this was a one off incident. Delve through the many videos here and on the other forums and you will realize the HC guys race clean unlike a lot of other series where its an eye for an eye. Some of you may read the Racer magazine and one of Randy Pobst's recent articles about keeping your cool.

I in no way shape or form represent HC, I am just an average Joe who'd like to see good clean racing. Sure bickering after races is fun, but pointing fingers and blaming an organization is a little childish at best.

 

Brian Bailey, that seems to ring a bell. Did you used to run in California?!

 

Grandpa's point of view:
I know little other than what has been written here. What I do see is a "crew chief" who needs to spank his driver and then get himself dealt with. I have been involved with the sport for far too long to think that anyone is perfect. Let me cite good sportmanship a long time ago-Don Yenko and his nenmisis from MA were running a National at VIR in the rain for national points. They agreed to not do anything that would harm either driver or car. Don won that day because he could handle the car better.
Now to modern times. It came as no surprise in my situation that HPDE would be a relatively safe way to start a return to competition. I do agree that $$$ can be overwhelming in CLUB or marque racing events. Why after so long did I get involved with NASA-because H4 and ITA are so much alike and I could cross over the car. I would have preferred to have done a different car, but that would have cost significantly more than I was will to pay out. I am self sponsored and ask nicely for help from others. MY wife is my crew chief and my 2 neighbors enjoy working with me too. This is a privateer from a time that logos and money from outside were not allowed by SCCA. Drivers could come to the track in a "race car" and drive home-very competitive cars, btw. Today is much different.
I will defend the principle of HPDE/PDE as it is a basis for true street car drivers to come out and see what they can do for themselves in a controlled environment. For those of us who are not chasing a "dream" title or fame it is a way to participate within our means. There are those who make fools of themselves and do get hurt. Example at Pocono-sorry BMW types-a brand new M# coupe (700 miles) was totaled during an HPDE because the driver thought he knew 'everything.' He will probably never do another event. What happens in the heat of competition is sometimes unavoidable. I tend to sit in the back and enjoy my time on course. Time Trialing is a different matter-and I do work hard to be respectable at the end of the day.
I truly wonder why the day of gentlemen drivers has seemingly passed us by. This is not a marque specific thing-it is the way of life so it seems. NONE of us, with exceptions, are out on track to earn a living in our cars. Few if any can afford to 'buy' a ride. The general SCCA/NASA type is there to have a good time with minimal incident. Want a real rush-go do a stock car school-I did several and they really wake you up. That is not for the faint of ego, btw. I'm sure that the road racing schools can be just as good at teaching car control and other techniques that we use.
Road racing needs to return to a gentler mindset. The clubs and sanctioning bodies are responsible for the way event s are conducted. Sure there are "snob" groups-but you find them everywhere. NASA filled a void the SCCA was unable to fill. Let's see how the new PDE program goes-I'm all for it.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> And many of the fastest NASA guys are visiting or EX SCCA guys.
Look it up, compare the numbers before you get upset and start arguing. Compare ITS lap records to H3 lap records. .

A few experienced drivers have trickled in from SCCA and elsewhere in the last few years, but for the most part its hard to find an ECHC racer with more than 5 years of W2W experience.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Catch 22 has it right. Look at H4 last year on the East Coast. Kofod and Carpenter won every race I think in H4 and they lowered the Summit track record by more than 2 1/2 seconds and even got below the ITA record.

I think Jon told me Ian has past professional race experience and I know Jon raced karts before he got into SCCA a few years back.

Those two just cleaned up in what was a very close and competitive class. I was at CMP for the season opener and there were something like 10 H4 cars there. By season's end there were only 3 or 4 at most.

 

I don't think the age of gentleman racers is gone, but the fields may be diluted a bit. I have been really impressed and pleasantly surprised with the respect and help given me as I start racing with the Spec Miata crowd with SCCA. Granted, I'm not the worst kind of newb and I do manage to keep my head on straight, but I've been treated very fairly and honestly and at least two guys have chosen not to take me out when they could have.