Just looking for some input before I make up my mind....so chime in but no smart *** comments...But I know you will anyway.

 

i'm currently looking at getting zeal b6's done some research cant find anything really bad about them. haven't looked into the ra's but i'm sure there not bad either. but i figure most people on here will just say stick to gc and koni.

 

IMO if your going to spend that kinda of money look into the cusom koni 3012 ( i think thats there number). Completly custom rebound and compression adjustable and they come in under 1500, ad some GC coil overs for the koni's, and some GC race mounts you will have a nice set up for right about 2200 or so. Im not sure on the prices for the koni's exactly, you could contact CRX LEE who works at koni for more info or even try Andrie who had teins and wasn't happy with them and switched to the koni's.

If the double adjustable isn't a need you can get the new 80 series honda "race" koni's. single adjust with SPSS3 valving and i think there shortnered. CRX lee made a post about them in the RR/Auto X forum, and they are only about 900.

 

if its between the ra and b6 go b6.

i was using ra for over a year and switched to s6 which were much better. same valving as b6 but with better materials s6 springs are lightweight swift and shocks are aluminum.
tein is inferior in everyway to zeal, from the cast vs machined perches, to the shock adjustment, helper springs vs 3way adjustment, the tein valving is too stiff for the springrate, even the customer service and turnaroud time for work/revalve..

then i switched the s6 to superfunction and have not been disappointed in anyway. zeal and endless usa get big

 

Thats the info I needed...Also returned your PM... Lets do it.

 

The B6 will allow for you to have independent ride height adjustment and spring preload as opposed to the Tein RA where you will lose stroke and preload when lowering hte vehicle, unless you add helper springs to maintain preload.

We have a large inventory of coilovers in stock, including the S6. Please contact us directly if you're interested in our product. We would be more than happy to go over your setup one on one.

Thanks for your interest.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Endless_USA &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The B6 will allow for you to have independent ride height adjustment and spring preload as opposed to the Tein RA where you will lose stroke and preload when lowering hte vehicle, unless you add helper springs to maintain preload.

Thanks for your interest.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Maybe you can answer this question for me, and us.


What is the big deal with prelod?

 

-it's good for marketing
-could petentially reduce noise

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by El Pollo Diablo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">-it's good for marketing
-could petentially reduce noise
</TD></TR></TABLE>


LOL...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by slammed_93_hatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
What is the big deal with prelod?</TD></TR></TABLE>

It's a nice feature so that you don't have to use helper springs to keep the main spring from banging around when that corner is unloaded.

 

interesting.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RineRacing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

It's a nice feature so that you don't have to use helper springs to keep the main spring from banging around when that corner is unloaded.</TD></TR></TABLE>

i under stand that, but he makes it sound like its a BIG deal, in reality thre are 100 of people that don't preload and have zero problems

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by slammed_93_hatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i under stand that, but he makes it sound like its a BIG deal, in reality thre are 100 of people that don't preload and have zero problems</TD></TR></TABLE>

Then you're reading to much into what he posted.

I have Zeal B6's on my autocross car and Koni/GC on my track car. When I'm working on my rack car I really miss the adjustability of the Zeals. With the Koni's I have very limited suspension travel, single adjustability, no dust boots and have to use helper springs to keep the springs seated. Granted all these issues are solvable but at additional cost of time and money. With the Zeals they were ready to go out of the box. I have had both types of shocks serviced and the Zeals were returned to me quicker.

Don't get me wrong, I like my Koni's (they wouldn't be on my car if I didn't) but I find too often that features on JDM coilovers get discredited just because they are JDM.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RineRacing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Then you're reading to much into what he posted.


Don't get me wrong, I like my Koni's (they wouldn't be on my car if I didn't) but I find too often that features on JDM coilovers get discredited just because they are JDM. </TD></TR></TABLE>

im not dicrediting anything because its JDM. The only positive thing i see about most jdm coil overs is the fact that they adjust height by the lower pearch which in turn you don't loose your suspension travel, but in my experance the jdm coil have a very limited rang of suspension travel, which is why the coil overs need to be preloaded because if not they you will be bottoming out.

Its kind of like which came first the chicken of he egg.

did the coil over's end up being made like this becuase it made production REALLY easy, by mass producing and cutting costs.

or did they do it becuase it was a way to still have a coil over with out looseing suspension travel.

the zeals (the compression and rebound ajdustable ones) are a VERY VERY nice unit in fact the nicest i have ever seen come from over there, ihave never used them but there dyno look good and i have only heard good things about it.

but at the price these coilovers go for, upwards of 2500, IMO there are BETTER products avaible. Like the ones i listed above. for that price you could have AD's and cash left over, 3011's and 400 left over. and both of those have more options then the zeals.

Maybe also its just the marketing steping in too muh

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by slammed_93_hatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> but in my experance the jdm coil have a very limited rang of suspension travel, which is why the coil overs need to be preloaded because if not they you will be bottoming out.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I have not seen this to be the case.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by slammed_93_hatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Its kind of like which came first the chicken of he egg.

did the coil over's end up being made like this becuase it made production REALLY easy, by mass producing and cutting costs.

or did they do it becuase it was a way to still have a coil over with out looseing suspension travel.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

You second statement here isn't very clear. I assume you mean lower the car w/o loosing suspension travel? Regardless of what you're trying to say it doesn't matter what the original intent was because the end result is a cheaper/more adjustable product.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by slammed_93_hatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
but at the price these coilovers go for, upwards of 2500, IMO there are BETTER products avaible. Like the ones i listed above. for that price you could have AD's and cash left over, 3011's and 400 left over. and both of those have more options then the zeals.</TD></TR></TABLE>

The B6's only list around $2k and if I had purchased my Konis new, plus the shortening, sleeves, springs, additional shipping and helper springs the cost would be coming close to $2k not to mention the time it would take to put all this together. I also retain my complete stock shock assembly ready to swap back in should I ever want to.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by slammed_93_hatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Maybe also its just the marketing steping in too muh</TD></TR></TABLE> Where?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RineRacing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

The B6's only list around $2k and if I had purchased my Konis new, plus the shortening, sleeves, springs, additional shipping and helper springs the cost would be coming close to $2k not to mention the time it would take to put all this together. I also retain my complete stock shock assembly ready to swap back in should I ever want to.

Where?</TD></TR></TABLE>

ok your missing it, koni sells the 3011 race shock rebound and compression adjustable for 1500 and GC's on top of that 300. Cheaper for a better product, why better? becuase you get to say exactly what you want for any choice there is.

and AD's can be had for around 1200 another damper that can be fully customized.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RineRacing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
You second statement here isn't very clear. I assume you mean lower the car w/o loosing suspension travel? Regardless of what you're trying to say it doesn't matter what the original intent was because the end result is a cheaper/more adjustable product.</TD></TR></TABLE>

What im saying is by having the dampers design the way they do it always for cheap mass production.

I don't see zeal being cheaper though.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RineRacing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Where?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well not really much from zeal, since they do not do much marketing, but alot from other companies.


Again the Zeal looks to be a good product, i think there is better products out there for a cheaper price.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by slammed_93_hatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">ok your missing it, koni sells the 3011 race shock rebound and compression adjustable for 1500 and GC's on top of that 300. Cheaper for a better product, why better? becuase you get to say exactly what you want for any choice there is.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Don't forget another $160 for 4 helper springs (all things being equal) and top hats if you don't have any already (building a car from a shell for example). A quick check of on-line prices also shows that your estimate of $1500 for 4 Koni 3011 to be a little low but perhaps I'm not looking hard enough. OPM and Redshift show higher prices.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by slammed_93_hatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What im saying is by having the dampers design the way they do it always for cheap mass production.

I don't see zeal being cheaper though.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Are Zeals cheaper to manufacture than Koni? I have no idea, nor will I try to debate manufacturing costs of companies in two different continents.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by slammed_93_hatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Well not really much from zeal, since they do not do much marketing, but alot from other companies.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Where? And if you're going to say here on H-T then your sample pool is very very small.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by slammed_93_hatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Again the Zeal looks to be a good product, i think there is better products out there for a cheaper price.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I will agree there are cheaper or better solutions out there but when you factor in all the costs (sleeves, shortening service, etc...) Zeal shocks are a good deal.

For $2k you could have a great Zeal/Tein/Koni setup each with their own advantages and disadvantages. My feeling is that for the price, serviceability and features I would go with Zeals over Teins as was the original question.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RineRacing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Don't forget another $160 for 4 helper springs (all things being equal) and top hats if you don't have any already (building a car from a shell for example). A quick check of on-line prices also shows that your estimate of $1500 for 4 Koni 3011 to be a little low but perhaps I'm not looking hard enough. OPM and Redshift show higher prices..</TD></TR></TABLE>

if you go threw koni you can have the for fairly close to that price, also you don't NEED the helper springs

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RineRacing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Are Zeals cheaper to manufacture than Koni? I have no idea, nor will I try to debate manufacturing costs of companies in two different continents.
.</TD></TR></TABLE>

just going by manufacturing principles mass produced units are always cheaper then custom one off peaces, its logical economical sense.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RineRacing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Where? And if you're going to say here on H-T then your sample pool is very very small.</TD></TR></TABLE>

over all, any place that sells them has the same informantion fed to them from the manufacturer.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RineRacing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
For $2k you could have a great Zeal/Tein/Koni setup each with their own advantages and disadvantages. My feeling is that for the price, serviceability and features I would go with Zeals over Teins as was the original question.</TD></TR></TABLE>

agreed there but why limit your self.

also im going to find a conversion rates to compare the adjustability from the koni SPSS3 valveing to the B6 valveing. I think it will be interesting to see, i will also throw on the AD's. although im not even sure that the koni 3011's can come with the SPSS3 or if they have a different valving

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by slammed_93_hatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">if you go threw koni you can have the for fairly close to that price, also you don't NEED the helper springs</TD></TR></TABLE>

I believe the OTS 3011 still need shortening for most applications, at least according to OPM. I included helper springs in the estimate so that we are comparing two coilovers with the same features.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by slammed_93_hatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
agreed there but why limit your self.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Again, you are not very clear in your statements.
Limiting myself how? By how much money I'm going to spend on shocks? Brands I'm chosing from? Coilover features? I listed three brands in my previous statement due to the fact that there are three brands discussed in this topic and I only compared two brands because that was the original question.

Don't forget -&gt;

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by slammed_93_hatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
just going by manufacturing principles mass produced units are always cheaper then custom one off peaces, its logical economical sense.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

So are you saying Konis are not mass produced shocks?

 

its factored into there cost as i under stand it.


and what i meant was that between zeal and tein id go with zeal. But why limit your self to just those to brands, i gave two other examples of which i have knowledge of, im sure progress could work out something too.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RineRacing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

So are you saying Konis are not mass produced shocks?</TD></TR></TABLE>

when comparing the koni 3011's to the B6's, It is my understand that the 3011's are all custom-made to order units. since that is what we have been comparing the b6's to the 3011's.

the koni sports or "yellows" and the koni 80 series would both be mass produced units.

my only point was that, there are other shocks out there that have the same features, at a possibly equal or lower cost, some MIGHT even perform better.

 

im wondering if you guys should keep going at it or take it to pm lol...

 

Zeal-1 Koni-0

 

im going to say straight up that helper springs are garbage by design.

it is impossible to predict what the suspension is going to do. they are so soft they might as well not be there, when they come into effect its b/c the wheel dropping(possibly lifting that corner from the ground) the main spring has risen off its perch, the problem is that when the load shifts back to that wheel the helper spring does nothing to dampen the impact of the main spring slaming back down onto its perch, then assuming the main spring is preloaded to begin with it will not cross into damening suspension motion untill force has exceeded its preload rate. it makes for a harsh unpredictable ride.

when you have a 3way adjustable setup which you can set for zero preload, then ANY +force transmitted to the wheel will be directly dampened by the spring/shock. plus the spring will never leave its perch.

ps. the main spring will not always come back down to rest in the correct spot after it leaves the perch. it can get hung up and then snap back when force has gained. also the helper spring is so soft and takes so much abuse the finish is 100% garanteed to flake off and the steel spring will rust underneith.

 

The whole point of helper springs is to keep the spring seated at all times, so there would never be a time where there is play between the main spring and its bottom perch and top mount. If that corner is at full droop for some reason, the helper spring's spring rate, while not very high, is enough to push the main spring up and keep it in contact with the upper mount, so there is no "slamming back" when that corner is put back under load, so no unpredictable handling. But the helper spring's spring rate is so low that it should not be factored into any estimate of handling performance, as it would only make its presence known when the suspension is at full droop. It does not affect the total spring rate of the car to any noticeable degree.
edit: I see what you are saying about the "slamming back" part now, you are talking about the main spring returning the distance it was pushed up by the helper spring. Its my understanding that the lack of having a spring in that short distance should not and does not affect handling at all. This is what I'm told, not anything I've experienced. Look at people who are running the koni yellows + gc's that have like inches of gap between the top of their spring and the upper mount, they don't seem to have any problems with handling. I remember we were on the topic of preload once, and one of our members here showed me a pic of his koni yellow/gc equipped car with quite a gap between the spring and top mount. I imagine it would be the same situation here, with the helper spring.