Is it worth getting an itb if you run with with a stock b18c5 bottome end, but run aftermarket cams (i.e. Jun)? Anybody get any gains or is it just not worth it unless your bottom end is bumped up with high compression pistons? Input needed and help appreciated.

thanks

 

imho, gains will vary - but there should be gains across the board. As much as 10-20whp throughout the powerband with just the addition of itb's. But of course, tuning is everything.....

I should have a comparo up in a few weeks.....

 

I've made good power on engines with less compression and smaller cams. If done right and tuned right, you should be very happy.

 

in my opinion you shouldnt be wasting money on itb's unless your going for 250+whp na monster, itbs are too expensive for the power they make and consequences that result, you will get shitty gas mileage, you will need new fuel management and hondata will not work, and they are a bitch to tune, you will either need to use ems or neptune as fuel management

spend your money on building the head up and getting a nice catback/header before blowing money on itb's, hell throw in a 50 shot for under $400 and you"ll be satisfied just fine,

less money, more power, better mpg,

 

I might be wrong but the state of IL don't want you waking them up wit loud *** ITB's . i remember you the big thing you had wit owning that Tanabe exhaust.

 

i didnt know you couldn't use hondata with itb's...ergh....

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CWTegRNo.160 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I might be wrong but the state of IL don't want you waking them up wit loud *** ITB's . i remember you the big thing you had wit owning that Tanabe exhaust.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah my neighbors are finally getting some good sleep since the stock exhaust is on ...temporarily ...wait til the amuse kicks in w/ a test pipe i wonder how loud it will be

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by digital sol &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">itbs are too expensive for the power they make</TD></TR></TABLE>

I made 10 peak hp over my stock intake manifold on a second gen B16A with nothing but S2S1 cams, a header, and exhaust. At some points in the powerband, those gains were closer to 15 hp. All for only $650 (parts and dyno time).

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by digital sol &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">you will get shitty gas mileage</TD></TR></TABLE>

I averaged 22 in town and 23 on the highway with my car, another setup I did last year averaged 23 in town and 25 on the highway, and I do believe that len was able to get 33 out of his setup when he had it.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by digital sol &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">you will need new fuel management and hondata will not work </TD></TR></TABLE>

Incorrect again. There's a hatch in Miami that runs TWM's on his LS/V and has pulled off 11.81 quarter mile passes tuned with a Hondata S200.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by digital sol &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">and they are a bitch to tune</TD></TR></TABLE>

In all honesty, once you get a good basemap, they're not that bad. Tell me now, how many ITB setups have you tuned, because I'll guarantee I've done more.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by digital sol &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">you will either need to use ems or neptune as fuel management</TD></TR></TABLE>

Misinformation. I've seen a couple of well tuned setups using Hondata and Uberdata, but the new Crome releases (version 1.1.2 being the latest) have ITB specific maps which cease to read load off of the MAP sensor at a certain load input, switching to reading from the TPS only which allows for a more consistent powerband. It's true that the system has many limitations when compared to the EMS, but it's still perfectly capable of correctly tuning an ITB setup.

digital sol, you are in need of additional research as it seems.

 

ive done my research if you tune your ITB'S usuing hondata the itb will either be 0% or 100% throttle at all times unless you are usuing EMS or Neptune, yea hondata can work but its kinda like usuing a vafc to control your turbo honda.....yea it will work but it wont work that well and often leads to the distruction of your motor

do your own research

and 10-15whp for $650 is decent i guess, but unless you make them yourself itb's are $1300+

and for $500 or less you can have more power throughout the entire power band with nitrous, if one were to go this route, and with nitrous you are not always on the bottle unlike itb's

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by digital sol &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">if you tune your ITB'S usuing hondata the itb will either be 0% or 100% throttle at all times</TD></TR></TABLE>
Not true. The MAP sensor does tend to push the car into columns 8 and 9 without getting on it too hard, but tuned properly Hondata and ITB's can work well together. In general, ITB's are not for the weekend warrior, but if you know what you are doing, they can be fun.
&lt;--- runs ITB's and Hondata on a mildly built ITR.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by digital sol &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">ive done my research if you tune your ITB'S usuing hondata the itb will either be 0% or 100% throttle at all times</TD></TR></TABLE>

This statement really doesn't make a lot of sense, but I'll take it that you aren't aware that the primary load readings for Honda ECU's aren't derived from the TPS, instead they are taken from MAP sensor input. The only real problem with Hondata is that the MAP voltage isn't always 100% accurate being that the maps are scaled for a manifold setup. Thus we have Uberdata (using MAP scaling tools to correct this problem) and Crome (capable of switching the primary load input to the TPS). Basically, you could run ITB's reasonably well with just a stock ECU, the biggest issue would be incorrect sensor voltage from the TPS and MAP. But even so, that hasn't stopped several people from making great gains, even with stock ECU's.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by digital sol &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">for $500 or less you can have more power throughout the entire power band with nitrous, if one were to go this route, and with nitrous you are not always on the bottle unlike itb's</TD></TR></TABLE>

Of course the biggest argument against nitrous is also one of your arguments for it. The vast majority of people interested in ITB setups have more of an autocross/road race background than not. A nitrous system is momentary allowing only relatively short bursts of power, rendering it less effective during an autocross/road race. Not to mention the potentially disastrous effects of spraying while cornering. In addition, a nitrous tank will need refills. I'm not trying to dis nitrous, I'm just stating that nitrous is primarily effective for certain types of driving, while ITB's are best suited to completely different types of driving. ITB's aren't for everyone, just as nitrous isn't either.

digital sol, I think it's time you start doing actual research instead of just relaying internet hearsay.

 

I don't get it. I haven't looked at ITB setup close up that didn't have carburetors. Hell, you guys should get individual carbs too. Easier to tune fuel

It seems like it would be a "straightforward" thing to plumb a common vacuum line to get MAP and hook up a TPS too.

How do the vacuum lines hook up on ITBs? Brake booster, FPR, etc?

Thanks
Chris

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Chris F &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">How do the vacuum lines hook up on ITBs? Brake booster, FPR, etc?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
A single line comes off of each intake runner to a common vacuum log. The vacuum log supplies vacuum for the brake booster, MAP, FPR, PCV etc.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by b19coupe &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
A single line comes off of each intake runner to a common vacuum log. The vacuum log supplies vacuum for the brake booster, MAP, FPR, PCV etc.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Ok, that makes sense. I was struggling to understand the "can't use Hondata" comment, or how that would be possible unless you completely lost the MAP or other sensors.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Chris F &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Ok, that makes sense. I was struggling to understand the "can't use Hondata" comment, or how that would be possible unless you completely lost the MAP or other sensors. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I believe one recent solution is to run 3 of the vacuum lines off the itb's to a log for the brake booster, MAP, FPR, PCV etc, and run one line off the itb's (say #1) for the MAP.

Another solution of late has been to just "T" all of the vacuum lines together - so there is no log, which allows for quicker response from the map sensor.

But hondata can and has been done with the above setups - hell, even a vafc only has been done as the only form of fuel mgmt with itb's. Do a search.....

Like I said, I should have a comparo up in a few weeks.....

But the argument FOR itb's is simple: it's a bolt-on part. No reliability issues associated with crazy cams, etc... It's also allmotor...

And who said you can't use nitrous WITH itb's?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Kicker773 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Yeah my neighbors are finally getting some good sleep since the stock exhaust is on ...temporarily ...wait til the amuse kicks in w/ a test pipe i wonder how loud it will be </TD></TR></TABLE>

have fun passing emissions testing with that setup (with our without itbs)

chris - who would like to know where paul found this bottomless pit of money... and wants him to share

 

when emmissions come i'll have to switch back to stockies if my buddy at emmissions isn't workn.

my bottomles pit of money is from selln my tanabe and other pieces that i've replaced on the r...n a lil bit of saving up here and there plus it helped a lot now that the car is already paid off ....i'm gonna b soo broke this summer for this rebuild ..argh..


Modified by Kicker773 at 8:28 PM 3/15/2005

 

nooo rebuild it after summer!!! we need to cruise around and **** LOL ... might as

well hide those wires/hoses too after you pull out that engine ... it'll be smashing

good fun

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Chris N &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

have fun passing emissions testing with that setup (with our without itbs)

chris - who would like to know where paul found this bottomless pit of money... and wants him to share </TD></TR></TABLE>

along with Chris, Justin would like to know if he can get a piece of the pie too

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Y2K_S2K &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">nooo rebuild it after summer!!! we need to cruise around and **** LOL ... might as

well hide those wires/hoses too after you pull out that engine ... it'll be smashing

good fun </TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm down for some smashing good fun

 

Ping83 is scheduling a somewhat photo shoot with him in june...justin ur welcome to come if you want.

 

Paul you should know that i'm up for that
I'll be back in early to mid June

 

you will definately see the gains on a stock bottom end throughtout the band. But tuning is most crucial with ITB's. many tuners hate tuning them because it takes more time. But hondata can be run. No problem.

Honeslty though, I don't see the need to spend a few thousand on ITB's when you could get similiar gains from better header, etc.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by totsie7944 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I don't see the need to spend a few thousand on ITB's when you could get similiar gains from better header</TD></TR></TABLE>

A few thousand??? Hardly. I've seen used TWM setups go for $1200 before. Jenvey's are less than 2k new and a well built 46mm DIY setup can easily be built within the $800 price range. Depending upon the exact setup and tuning, a better header could match the peak power numbers, however midrange power and throttle response are the primary reasons for an ITB setup. Plus what about a damn good header AND ITB's?