Hey guys, i figured i'd post this here because you guys have a LOT more experience than I do with suspension tuning and whatnot.

Anyways, I just picked up a full coil-over set-up from a friend of mine for a 2000 Civic Coupe. It's the Koni yellows that are threaded and have their own springs already on them. I'm sure that this will not be an optimal spring set-up for my 2080lb. Civic hatchback, so I am going to have a local company (Carrera?) make some custom springs for these coil-overs.

I drive the car daily, and it is also used for SCCA SoloII comp, and I'd like to attend a lot of track days at the southeast road couses and stuff too.

The car is a 1992 CX hatchback with a 1998 B18C5 Type R drivetrain. I also plan on adding a stock 1992 Si front swaybar (22mm?) and a rear swaybar as well. I guess a 24mm swaybar for the rear will be the plan unless one of you guys has a better set-up.

So, having said all that what spring rates do you guys think would be a good for my car? I really appreciate any help you guys could offer.

Thanks.

 

Okay, do I need to supply more info perhaps? Just checking...

B18CXR? Anybody? PLEASE?

 

Oh, I must have attached the [blacklist] tags to my topic, right?

Seriously, 21 views and NO replies? Nobody has any suggestions?

 

Sorry to say that most of us don't have experience with hybrids like yours, and in fact most of us would do anything to avoid adding weight to the front of our cars. That being the case there's undoubtedly a reluctance to give you advice since this is among the more practical boards you're likely to find.

My GUESS is that you'll need as much or more rear roll stiffness than most of us do since you've probably got worse weight distribution. I'll sound like a broken record if I suggest that you go with a front rate of at least 400 lbs and a rear of at least that much to start and probably more depending on use and skill - though you're going to want to keep it docile for the street.

Scott, who thinks the most killer hybrid would have an H22 behind the drivers seat of a late CRX.....but that'd be crazy.....

 

The B-series motors are not that *MUCH* heavier then the D-Series. For power-to-weight, the swaps can't be beat. Basic FF suspension setup should still apply. I know a guy with the same setup, B18C5 in a '92 CX, and he is running 650/700 with no rear bar. Car felt pretty good. With a 22mm rear bar, it should be nice.

How about a C30/C32 in a CRX.


http://www.honda-performance.com/honda/crnsx.html


[Modified by SPiFF, 7:31 PM 1/21/2002]

 

I appreciate the advise. The B18C5 in the car doesn't really add too much weight to the car - every other country in the world except for the U.S got a 1992-1995 hatchback with a B-Series motor in it, so I figure there have to be good set-ups out there.

Anybody else that has a hatchback perhaps?

 

I hope to GOD that this does not turn into a discussion about Mahdavi Motorsports's non-runiing CR-NSX...I really NEED some help with this topic.

BTW: That wasn't a rip on the CR-NSX, but it really does NOT run and won't for some time until they can figure out how to get everything wired up.

Anyways, back to the topic at hand, shall we?

 

B series tranny/motor is about 125 lbs heaver than the D series combo. You don't think that will be noticeable when it is hanging over the front wheels? The weight is also higher up in the car. Worst possible place.

Anyhow, for the road and for a roadcourse the B series will be better, but for autox, not at all.

But back the the spring question. If you want a comfortable street/track setup, do something like 375/450. For a more race setup and to-hell-with-comfort, do 600/750 or such with a front and rear sway. I do advise that you put the front sway on because the car needs it, especially for the street (read: safety).

 

Thanks for the input on the spring rates.

Do you think that with equal drivers a Type R motor'd CX hatchback would outrun a 125hp Si hatchback? I used the Si to be fair since it has the highest power output of the stock motor'd Civic hatches. I'm positive that the CX and VX motor/tranny combos would be horribly anemic for suto-X, or anything for that matter. I've seen guys in DX and Si hatches run really good though.

You really think that the extra weight up front would not be worth having the LSD, tons more torque and the excellent gearing from the B18C5? I just figured that since the hatchback comes from the factory straight from Honda and since the Japanese EGs with their stock B16A powerplant does so well in circuit racing that it would still handle nicely.

I guess auto-X is a totally different animal from circuit racning though, huh? I guess I'd rather have an excellent track car even if it means sacrificing auto-X ability.

Again, thanks for the spring rate help!

 

the car will still be alot faster than a stock CX/DX. You just have to keep the extra weight in consideration when setting up the car and corner weighting it and setting ride height.

-Ryan

 

First, a disclaimer: I haven't done any suspension tuning on a civic hybrid. But I do have a lot of the same questions as you do, because I now own a civic, and it will someday be hybrid, probably with a b-series motor.

Now, on to some hopefully useful thoughts.

First, I asked a local civic enthusiast (he's also really goddamn fast at autocross) who does his homework what the weight gain for a B18B is over the D16Z6. He said between motor, tranny, and axles, it's 80lbs. Really, not that bad. I don't know what GS-R/Type-R is on top of that. I also didn't ask if that includes air conditioning and power steering. Also, since a good portion of the weight is in transmission and axles, it's not like you're adding all those 80 pounds up above the CG. Also consider that base model civics don't have those sunroofs you G3 non-ITR 'teg owners get messing with your CG.

Next.... If adding the weight of a b-series motor to a civic is so detrimental, why the hell did Roger Foo do it? Someone above mentioned that the extra weight in front isn't so bad for a road racer. Plus, If you add a cage, it'll be mostly behind the driver, which I'd think would offset a lot of the balance issues (just a thought I had, not that I actually suggest you add a cage).

Remember, the civic shares suspension geometry with with Integra, so a lot of RR98ITR's measurements and research may be applicable.

Maybe you should start by getting your civic on some scales and measuring the weight distribution and CG height, and then come back with that info and compare it against the integras that are much better-known around here. Then it seems like you'd be able to make good educated guesses as to what changes to make to a good 3g Integra setup to make it work on your car.

-Mike

 

I run a 93 Hatch Si (stock motor) and I compete (Solo 1) with a couple of friends who run similar 5th gen hybrids(CX with a B18c, Si with a B16).

Over the past year or so we have experimented with a variety of suspension setups(spring rates, shocks, sway-bars etc). This is what I have determined.

-Rear spring rates tend to effect your perception of ride quality more than fronts.

-450 lb/in rear springs are about the maximum you want in "comfortable" street car. It just squeeks in under the WAF (Wife acceptance factor) max limit. However if you do not have to worry about WAF or GAF then you can go nuts up to the point where your chiropractor bills start to exceed your yearly racing budget. The other issue is the condition of the roads you drive ... if they are nasty ... then high rear spring rates can be painfull. with 700lb/in rear spings, I have come out of my seat and smacked the roof with my head after hitting a bump while traveling down the highway : (

-With your swap the smallest front spring rate I would start with is 350 lbs/in, this should provide a decent ride, with good handeling.

-Definately add the Si/Ex front swaybar, this will help improve daily driving safety and comfort, you can allways disconnect the swaybar endlink at the track if you wish more rotation

-350 f and a 450 rear is a good starting point ... I ran my Si with this combination on Koni yellows, Stock front sway-bar and a EX-V 13mm rear swaybar. The car rotated nicely, and was very controllable.
If after a while you have the need for more, you can always swap the rear 450 springs to the front and order a set of 600+ springs for the rear. Eibach ERS springs are fairly cheap so experimentation, to find a setup that YOU like is possible

-If you find that the 450 rears are about as much as you want then look at a larger rear swaybar, 22mm ITR etc ... But do not forget to reinforce the subframe, these big bars can cause damage. The nice thing about a big rear swaybar and "relatively" soft springs is you get good rotation, with "resonable" ride comfort. My only issue with big rear swaybars is that I found that they can unload the rear suspension less linearily than stiffer springs, and can cause snap oversteer.

-As spring rates increase the effectiveness of a sway-bar diminishes ... My bud's CX is running 700F 1000R with NO rear swaybar and he has absolutly NO problem rotating the car.

-Note: on the Koni's the maximum spring rate they can handle and damp in stock form is in the 600lb/in range, if you are going higher than that you may want them to be re-valved with these spring rates in mind.

-I have since upgraded to Tein HA's with 450 lb/in fronts an 680 lb/in rears ... the car handles extreamly well ... BUT the ride comfort has plumeted ... But not as much as I would have suspected due to the "quality" of the Teins damping. The My new rates for the 2002 season will probably be 680 F and 1000 lb R ... But these will be swapped in at the track

I hope this helps

Cheers

Moose

 

Yikes! That's some EXCELLENT info!

I do have a fiancee', but lucky for me she also drives a nice little B16A-powered hatch and HER car is the "nice" car we can take anywhere. I woudl not care about ride quality as long as the car will corner really well.

Since I'll be limited with my Koni's, would 450 front 600 rear be a good start? I would have a stock front bat and at LEAST a stock ITR rear bar with the Beak's Kit which adds a reinforcement bracket I think.

Hey, I'd get some other coil-overs, but I got these Koni full set-up deals for only $300! The guy was desparate to get coil-over SLEEVES for his new Mazda Pro-5, and that's what I did for him. I traded the $300 Mazda sleeves for his $1,200 Konis!

Any body else care to share their set-ups as well? Not that the info thus far isn't helpful - it is - but I like to see a lot of set-ups and experiences too

 

450-600 would be a good start if you are willing to deal with a a very stiff ride ...

At the price you paid ... I would have jumped all over that deal as well ... It is a really good setup that will last you a number of years ... Konis by far are the best deal in performance shocks ... you really cannot go wrong with them.

I would start with this spring setup, without the ITR bar initially, till you get used to the new setup, then once you are comfortable then install the rear bar. Change one thing at a time.

Remember, soft front with higher rear spring rates take the "safety" out of FWD OE spring rates, you will not understeer anymore... So lifting off of the throttle in the middle of an on-ramp when you realise that you have entered to fast is BAD.

Previously with stock suspension if you lifted mid-corner the front end would have tucked in nice an controllably ... NOW the back end will step out ... you have to be ready for it, and if the back-end steps out, re-apply the throttle to"pull" the front end around (and the tail will follow) ... the rear ITR bar will accentuate this trait ... so get used to the tail-happines before the ITR bar.

I would recommend that once you have got the suspension installed, and a four-wheel alignment done, that you do a couple of Solo2's and lapping days to get your self re-aquainted with car in a safe enviornment.

Have fun !!!! you are on a steep slippery slope towards suspension bliss and an empty wallet : )

Cheers

Moose
The Club http://www.hadamotorsport.com
The Car http://www.hadamotorsport.com/member...d/andrewd.html
]


[Modified by Moosilla, 7:58 PM 1/21/2002]

 

Thanks again Moose. I will try the 450/600 and NO bar to begin with as suggested. I canb always add the 22mm bar which would probably not be too much then.

Thanks.

 

Everyone about covered the springrate stuff, so you should have a good grasp on that.

Tangent on Autox vs roadcourse: autox is all about lightweight. I'd give up 20 hp for 75lbs off the nose of the car. You really only run in second, maybe third gear, so gearing and small wheels make up for any lack of power. How do you think those damn 12v 110 hp 86 CRXs run so fast when compared to the 400hp Corvettes? But on a roadcourse, the vette would flat kill it.

B series swap is a good idea for a track car, not so much for an autox car.

-The sohc 1.6 vtec is 25-30 lbs heavier than the non-vtec 1.6 sohc
-B18B is about 20-25 lbs lighter than the B18C/B16A.

Those vtec parts aren't lightweight, ya know Plus, vtec cars tend to make Hp up top, where the non-vtec cars do it more down low.

Personally, if I were building a car for Autox (SM), I'd stay away from vtec motors. A lot of lightweight power can be had out of the good old D series and B18B.

 

Get a rear sway, even if you have to use a 14mm GSR unit to begin with. There is a reason the realtime cars use 1100lb rear springs and still use a 26mm rear bar.

Sway bars are not bad things and they shouldn't be patched with stiff spring rates.

 

Hey Todd, I also added an ATS 4.929 FD to compensate for the lack of power down low - now punching the throttle in 2nd gear RIPS and the LSD bites down pretty hard too! I can tag 3rd for a bit too even on a tight course due to the quick runout of the gears.

I was just curious about if both cars had equal drivers would the lighter 102hp car beat the 195hp LSD-equipped car. Since my car is also my daily driver I CANNOT settle for 102hp at the crank. Maybe that's just me though...

 

On a sidenote, are the Konis for the 5th and 6th gen the same in the rear? I know the 6th gen models have *thinner* lower control arms. I know that Tokico sells the same shock for the different generations, and include spacers to take up the slack that the thinner 6th gen LCAs do not. If not, and they're made specifically for the 6th gen, they may not fit...you may want to look into this before installing.

 

Again... even though you're adding 80 lbs at the nose of the car the B18C5, with the LSD, will be faster - just compensate for it when setting up the suspension. This setup would make a great street-mod car I'm jealous... the civic hatch's (like an Si) handle like fuggin go-karts...

-Ryan

 

I think there has allways been two distinct waring factions fighting over rear swaybars .... those who like them and those who do not. I am one that dis-trusts swaybars : )


They are both doing the same thing ... CONTROLLING weight transfer ... but they do it in different ways.
Where springs controls weight transfer directly by controlling body-roll through the stiffness(rate) of the spring, the swaybar does it through directing the force exerted on one side of the suspension to the opposite side helping to counteract the applied force. The swaybar uses its torsional stiffness to tranfer the energy. This works quite well ... how-ever if the "spring rate" of the swaybar is not matched the springs, when the suspension is transitioning back to neutral, the energy built up in the swaybar can often cause the car to become unbalanced. You are literally changing the effective rates of your springs, since the amount of body roll increases the swaybars effect, it has a somewhat progressive effect on the suspension. Plus unlike a spring that has a shock to damp the motions of the spring, the swaybar has no direct damping itself ... I think this more than anything causes grief.

Where swaybars become really valuble is when your spring rates become so high to control weight transfer, that the suspension abilty to absorb bumps becomes impared, a suspension that does not allow your rubber to keep in contact with the pavement is not doing its job. In this case you can back off your spring rates to allow your springs/shocks to do their job, and allow the swaybar to control the remaining bodyroll/weight transfer

My biggest beef with MOST rear swaybars is that they are really not tune-able, at least to the extent that spring-rates are. An ajustable swaybar is a good tool, one that is worth the time and money.

Yes the real-time guys use a HUGE rear swaybar ... but is a custom unit that is adjustable to match the supension.


I see the need, but dislike how they can effect my car ...
I am restricted to 13mm at present, how-ever I would probably look at a larger adjustable unit, if the rules allowed.

A good rear swaybar is one that works with the springs and shocks to provide a seemless transition during weight transfer. The ITR is a prime example of this ... The 22mm rear bar works amzingly well with the stock suspension and chasis ... it is probably one of the best handeling FWD cars in stock form. .

The Club http://www.hadamotorsport.com
The Car http://www.hadamotorsport.com/member...d/andrewd.html

 

Re: Differences between 5th and 6th gen rear Shocks.

The 6th gen rear LCA shock bushing is narrower than the 5th gen ... so a 6th gen shock will not fit on a 5th gen without modification.

HOWEVER all you need to do is "shave" the metal part of the rear bushing with a die grinder about 3/32" (each side) . There is a lot of metal there so there should be no problems ... just make sure you take your time and keep the working area cool so that you do not "cook" the rubber bushing. I did this when I tranfered my Koni Yellow from my 97 to my 93.

Tokico solves this problem by only making "ONE" rear shock for 5th gens, 6th gens and 3rd gen Tegs. They sell the Fifth gen with spacers so it can be used with 6th gens

Cheers


The club http://www.hadamotorsport.com
The car http://www.hadamotorsport.com/member...d/andrewd.html

 

Since I'm having a lot of luck with this thread, how about THIS?

I'm getting the 4-wheels discs from a salvage yard that comes with the front spindles with doscs and calipers, rear traling arms with all the lines, etc. and the mastercyl. and prop. valve for the complete 4-wheel disc upgrade too.

Can i kill two birds with one stone by purchasing the rear suspension/brakes from a 1999-2000 Civic Si? Then will the Konis just bolt up? Will the 99-00 traling arms just bolt right up like the Integra pieces do? I've done the Integra sus swap before, but I need to know if the "EK" sus will fit or not.

Thanks LOADS for those of you who are contributing all this useful info.

 

Doesn't a rear swaybar also have the benefit of helping to keep your rear springs from coming unseated, especially when you lift the inside wheel?

-Mike

 

With all the other mods you have done to the car, why is the rear way bar restricted? Just curious...

-Ryan