OK- So the beloved Civic is gone.....if you missed the thread it went into wall at RA this past weekend during an enduro. Co-driver was in the car- Lyonel didn't even see the incident. Driver ok though.

Please keep in mind that we are POOR/budget racers- so no crazy $ cars- stick to possible real options please....
If you can reference a specific available (ie for sale) racecar or chassis to begin with please do...or message us.

We do want to still be able to run NASA as well as SCCA. (so no hybrids)

The way we see it our options are....

1) Buy another 92-95 Civic EX chassis. Cage it & move what we have over to it.

2) Buy a (cheap) used Honda (ideally something with a cage in it at least) to build from. Something that has more power than the Civic did (a "step up").

Thoughts?
We're at a crossroads & are overwhelmed with options but wonder what route our fellow honda-tech guys think we should take.....

So what would you like to see Lyonel Kent behind the wheel of next....?

Thanks!

 

Damn, that's sad, Lyonel. Sorry to hear...

Given your self-imposed limits, I'd look hard at doing another EX. The allure of simply going faster is a false one, I believe. That, and I was really looking forward to you kicking some ITA butt this season...

K

 

Unless you guys are dying for something different, Lyonel was super fast in what he had. Seems like he found a setup/car what worked well for him. IMHO, why mess with a good thing? Rebuild what he had.

 

Spec Miata.

Sounds like you'll be safely off the front with the fast guys.

Scott, who could liquidate his current setup, go Spec Miata, and have money left over, and yet would consider it "a Loss"...racing isn't stupid, racers are...

 

Get a 1st gen CRX and/or a 3rd gen Civic. Get His and Hers, and both of you race!

They should be lots cheaper, all the way around.

I have heard that the GOTO:Racing CRX was finally sold, and came toward the east coast.

Keith, always encouraging more H5 drivers...

 

You should buy another car for H1 or something... then give me your wrecked car (with all parts) for $500 so I can get another shell and cage and move everything over and go race

 

Get a hatch, cage it, and swap over everything thats salvageable from the current car.

I would think the shorter wheelbase of the hatch would make it a tad quicker than the coupe in the corners, with the same HP and brakes.
If I were building an ITA car right now, this would be my choice.
Besides, you guys already have parts, knowlege, and spares for this chassis.

The only issue is the cost of entry on a hatch. Because of the swap craze they are still way overpriced. Start looking now though, and maybe hit up Chuck Reynolds and see what he can find.

Of course, you still can't go wrong with a CRX, and I think Richie's is still for sale at a very reasonable price.
Although Lyonel in a CRX might be a bit scarey. I'm (seriously) not sure his driving style is suited for that car.

Scott, who thinks ITA is the shizzle right now and you can still run H4 which is one of the NASA internasnizzlifics.

 

Ultimately even if we go another route the Civic will be fixed/rebuilt at some point.... its just at the moment we're not in the middle of a championship (or going for one this year) so it would be the ideal time to change to another car for a while... a door has been opened we just have to decide if we want to walk through it now.
The budget is mostly due to the fact we can do a lot ourselves & want any suggestions to be grounded in reality, also we're assuming that anything we buy will require a thorough going through w/ replacing/upgrading/fixing costs (even if its a race car & the buyer claims we can go race it immediately).

We actually have the time to do something like this at the moment.
Not to say we won't redo the Civic- the prospect of leaving it broken & running something else on the one hand breaks our heart, but on the other hand curiosity is making us at least examine other options.

To take into consideration too is the difficulty we have for some things for the civic for example our final drive went w/ the tranny at the end of last year- exospeed is the only one carrying a fd for the car- right now Wil has been unable to get any (supplier just hasn't sent them to him-he has been trying to get them since the end of last year) we know as soon as exospeed gets them it'll be at our door in a flash, but theres nothing he or we can do to speed the process up. We run into problems like this all the time- it gets frustrating- if we went to something else this would be less problematic....thats part of the lure of trying something different...

We've always talked about having 2 racecars- one for each of us, and in those plans the civic would go to Danielle to race when I had another- something faster meaning like an ITS car for example (have thought about a prelude).

Thanks for your input Kirk....

BTW one other clarification (in case someone thinks about it)...building the ITR is NOT an option- Danielle is not ready to let me have it.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RR98ITR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Spec Miata.

Sounds like you'll be safely off the front with the fast guys.

Scott, who could liquidate his current setup, go Spec Miata, and have money left over, and yet would consider it "a Loss"...racing isn't stupid, racers are...</TD></TR></TABLE>

That has been taken into consideration.....
cheap....competitive...
I've just always been a Honda guy- but it isn't ruled out...

(Please don't bash me too hard Catch22...you always knew I was slightly crazy...)

 

What would be your net cost if you bought an H1 car, and sold off the H1 goodies? You could sell the engine, big brakes, pimpy header, etc. and swap in stuff from your parts bin. Just a thought...

 

I'd get a Civic CX and go ITC. All your suspension bits and whatnot will bolt right up. You could have a potentially front running car for next to no financial outlay. JeffS had, at one point, a CX shell that already had a sweet cage in it that he was selling for cheap.

That's what I'd do. To me, I don't want to go much faster than an ITB or ITC car will go at a place like Road Atlanta. ITS BMWs run 1:40 flat. I don't think that's for me.

--Karl, increasingly big fan of ITC

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by speedracer33 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What would be your net cost if you bought an H1 car, and sold off the H1 goodies? You could sell the engine, big brakes, pimpy header, etc. and swap in stuff from your parts bin. Just a thought...</TD></TR></TABLE>

Would depend on the car and price...
the more we have to start with at purchase (with some $ left to spare) the faster we can get back on track....

 

You should buy my car....but then again I am biased....as well as between a rock and a hard place

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Lyonel 13H4 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">BTW one other clarification (in case someone thinks about it)...building the ITR is NOT an option- Danielle is not ready to let me have it.</TD></TR></TABLE>

My thought, but I know it's not exactly a "cheap one".

Good luck to you guys.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by krshultz &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'd get a Civic CX and go ITC. All your suspension bits and whatnot will bolt right up. You could have a potentially front running car for next to no financial outlay. JeffS had, at one point, a CX shell that already had a sweet cage in it that he was selling for cheap.

That's what I'd do. To me, I don't want to go much faster than an ITB or ITC car will go at a place like Road Atlanta. ITS BMWs run 1:40 flat. I don't think that's for me.

--Karl, increasingly big fan of ITC</TD></TR></TABLE>

(This is Danielle BTW)
Lyon is only interested in ITA or ITS.... he doesn't always do what makes sense (like the ITC route, which is a great idea but I know he won't go for it)

He wants the same if not more speed- he is crazy enough to want to go much much faster at a place like RA... he has run in the 45s there before & still complained the car was too slow/lacking enough power.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Lyonel 13H4 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

(This is Danielle BTW)
Lyon is only interested in ITA or ITS.... he doesn't always do what makes sense (like the ITC route, which is a great idea but I know he won't go for it)

He wants the same if not more speed- he is crazy enough to want to go much much faster at a place like RA... he has run in the 45s there before & still complained the car was too slow/lacking enough power.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

then that kind of narrows down the choices, doesn't it?

- faster than ITA =&gt; ITS
- honda/acura in ITS =&gt; prelude, integra GSR
- parts availability =&gt; GSR

doesn't Shultz have one of those for sale?

done.

The only drawback is that H3 is pretty lonely these days it seems.


My personal preference would be to say: get 88-91 civic or crx and go to town in H4/ITA. Parts are plentyful, and it should be as fast as the other civic. but that's just me. That, and H4 = bigger fields.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Lyonel 13H4 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
cheap....competitive...
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Think again.
There wasn't a single SM in the top 15 last weekend that would come in under the $20K mark. That doesn't qualify as "cheap" in my book.

Consider Karl's suggestion on the ITC car above. Ruck has a couple of track records up north in his CX, so its competitive. And all of your current suspension parts will bolt right in.
You and Danielle could run ECRs together at very little cost. ITC cars are stupid cheap to run because they are so easy on consumables.

Everybody that has driven mine, including Karl, has come away a convert.

 

Yeah, but ITC is getting more and more expensive as it becomes more popular and competitive.

Scott, who is looking for a class that's cheap, popular, competitive, and only attracts competent racers...looking...looking...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Lyonel 13H4 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
He wants the same if not more speed- he is crazy enough to want to go much much faster at a place like RA... he has run in the 45s there before & still complained the car was too slow/lacking enough power.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Just remind him that any ******* can go fast down the back straight.
The speed at the apex of turn 1 in my ITC car is just as fast as any ITA car. You just brake less and pucker up.

This is one of the reasons I think driving the slower car is harder. Both the ITA and ITC cars hit the apex of 1 at about the same speed, but you brake more in the ITA car, which makes your self preservation mechanism happier.
Since Lyonel has no self preservation mechanism, the C car is a perfect choice for him.

 

As much as it'll pain you to hear this, don't limit yourself to a specific brand of car (ie Honda). Picking a racecar with your heart will only cost you money in the long run. Pick it with your head.

Decide where you want to race (what series and class) and pick the car that can win, and has shown that it can win, in that series. If you want to race in ITS, that means either a Speedsource RX7 or an E36 BMW (Bimmerworld possibly) right now, not a Honda unfortunately. The Porsche 944S might be competitive as well but it doesn't sound like you have the budget to throw at that car to develop it properly and as of today, no one has fully developed one to the limit of the rules so its competitiveness is still up for speculation.

If you want to race Honda Challenge, then pick a class and buy the overdog car, whatever it may be. If you want to race SCCA and NASA, then decide on ITA, B, C, S (or some other class, T2 or T3 might be a good option for you and would put you into a higher horsepower car for not much more than a modified older Honda) and pick the overdog car. Doing anything else won't put you in the best position to win.

If winning isn't your goal, then disregard everything I've typed above.

PS - 1:35's at Road Atlanta is more than a little fun. 1:45 starts to feel like a slow street car. I highly suggest you step up to something faster. The skills you picked up driving a slower car will prove very valuable when you get into something with a little horsepower.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Lyonel 13H4 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">.
If you can reference a specific available (ie for sale) racecar or chassis to begin with please do...or message us.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Here's a barn stormer. Not my car but a friend's. It was Louis Bastani's (sp?), aka LTB, old car.

Frest low mile Sunbelt built motor (fully blueprinted and balanced. .040 OB, etc...)
Robinson Racing Cage w/ NASCAR BARS
OPM LSD/Houseman 4.93 Final Drive
Inverted Koni 3011 racing shocks, double adjustables w/ eibach ERS springs (custom valved and sized)
Momo Nascar Seat
Momo belts
Autometer Guages and tach with sequential Shift light
Spherical eccentric bushings (OPM) & radius rod bearings
OPM hardened hubs
Spearco Oil Cooler
DC Sport header w/ custom borla race exhaust
New set of Hoosiers w/ only one race on them on pannasports american racing wheels
AEM Cold Air Intake
RE radio wiring w/ long-range antenna and PTT switch
Custom quick release steering wheel hub w/ momo steering wheel
Custom 2 1/2 inch straight exhaust with Stainless Borla race muffler
Blue printed and balanced fuel injectors
UR Race crank pulley
etc..etc...

This car would cost you well over $25K to build, easily. I have all records, receipts, and SCCA log book.

Too much to list...many many spares. Full set of rain tires (toyos on Enkies), Hubs, LCAs, Ecus, distributor, tune up parts, trailing arms, axles, master cylinders, Stock head and short block, etc etc...

Clean, fast, and fun.

Can include 18' Anderson open car hauler as package deal

A steal at $8900 obo for car and $1400 for trailer w/ mounted tool box. (will not sell trailer w/o car unless car sells 1st). Car is in NH.

email --&gt; djwhite[at]gis.net


s

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Think again.
There wasn't a single SM in the top 15 last weekend that would come in under the $20K mark. That doesn't qualify as "cheap" in my book.

Consider Karl's suggestion on the ITC car above. Ruck has a couple of track records up north in his CX, so its competitive. And all of your current suspension parts will bolt right in.
You and Danielle could run ECRs together at very little cost. ITC cars are stupid cheap to run because they are so easy on consumables.

Everybody that has driven mine, including Karl, has come away a convert.</TD></TR></TABLE>

The spec miata notion has been entertained- but in reality probably would not happen for more reasons than cost.... (to sum up:insert plethora of anti-sm thread content from RA last weekend here)

We discussed the ITC route & there was lack of interest on Lyon's part mainly b/c he likes what he sees in ITA & ITS. Also the cost for the civic (as it was in ITA) was very affordable as well. Maybe after reading this thread we'll think again. We did just hear of a CX about to be available locally & the price is great...

We appreciate all this input from everyone though.... (like I said this is Danielle) he will read all your comments/suggestions...he asked me to call a few people today asking their opinion- I figured this would be a better way to go about it.

When we built the civic everyone told us it was a horrible idea (& thats b4 it was classed into ITS & all assumed it would go into ITA)....it wasn't a horrible idea in the end, but this time round we want to consider things that are popularly viewed as a "good idea."

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Lyonel 13H4 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">We discussed the ITC route & there was lack of interest on Lyon's part mainly b/c he likes what he sees in ITA & ITS.</TD></TR></TABLE>

To me, at least in ITS, there isn't much to see that can be liked. I see $60K E36 BMWs that, restrictor plate or otherwise, are still burning the rest of the field to the ground. I see straight line speeds in excess of 140mph. I see, in the Honda camp, no car that isn't murderously hard on tires, brakes, and driveline bits.

Personally I could be tempted to do an ITA EG hatch for myself. But driving the ITC car is making me a better driver and a better racer. So far, ITC is the code crack for me. Do think about it - we'd love to have another team to compete against in the ECRs.

 

Sorry to hear about your car Lyonel.

My $.02 opinion is to go with what you already know. Get a 5th-Gen Si hatch and run ITA/H4. Most everything you already have (that's not damaged) will swap over.

 

Keeping your current budget in mind.

I guess your cheapest route is going to be get another 5G EG Coupe.

As Scott pointed out the hatch may be quicker and since the 92-95 Si is now in ITA and still in H4 you could always buy one of these and everything from your Coupe (for the most part) should swap over and you still have a legal ITA/H4 car and maybe be even faster.

If you go with anything else, it's probably going to cost you a good bit, so if you decide to go with anything, but the above mentioned cars, I'd buy only turn-key or damn close cars or else you are looking at big bucks or big time spent getting ready and I'm sure you want to get back out there ASAP.

If you are looking for something faster, your next logical choice would be H3/ITS. GSR would probably be your best bet. As was stated though, H3 struggles for competition and ITS (although could be different this year with new rules in place) the GSR isn't exactly the "Hot Choice". Plus I'm not sure how much "faster" you are looking to go, but it wouldn't be that big of a step.

I think your next step would be the ITR, but as you said out of the question so if an H2/IT? car is out of the question, then I would certainly think an H1/ITE car would be WAY out of the question unless you wanted to be the 1st in the ECHC to build bad *** Z6 92-95 CX?

Come on you know you wanna!

While be it true choosing a race car with your head instead of your heart is the best way, it may only apply to when you start off. I mean while switching to something else may prove well, obviously it won't be your cheapest option as you will basically be looking for turn key or close cars, because not much (if any) will be salvageable from you car. So you have to go through the headache (to some at least) of parting out your current race car.

It basically comes down to $. How fast do you want to go?