here is the problem, I would like to be reliable, have the least down time, and be the best bang for the buck. Which out of these would suit me well. I have a b16a2 already.

thanks

either way pistons would be usdm or jdm itr ones

 

I found from researching this very same question that most people feel that the LS/VTEC is not the most reliable way to go especially compared to a poor man's type R build. That's not to say that a reliable LS/VTEC can't be made, but it tends to cost a little more than a standard poor man's type R build typically would.

 

poor man r has slightly better r/s ratio also...oil squirters...block girdle...already has vtec oil passage...i mean the list goes on...it was just so much easier for me to get a b18c put ctr's in and slap my b16 head on it and call it done...

 

from my experiene the poorman r will make less power than the ls/vtec ur compresion is lowered alot with the pmr even if u put itr piston like u said u would have slightly higher compresion with the ls/vtec w/itr pistons ....id say stick with the ls/vtec for all motor and pmr for boost...both will be reliable if built right ..

chris

 

"poorman r will make less power than the ls/vtec ur compresion is lowered alot with the pmr"

ya the whole 0.2 difference in compression makes such huge power gains
and in reality because my compression is a bit lower i can still run full timing advance and actually make more power on pump gas

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 2k.civic.si &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">"poorman r will make less power than the ls/vtec ur compresion is lowered alot with the pmr"

ya the whole 0.2 difference in compression makes such huge power gains
and in reality because my compression is a bit lower i can still run full timing advance and actually make more power on pump gas</TD></TR></TABLE>
i was insisting on them being totaly stock but im just saying from experiene the pmr felt slow to me slower than a stock ls this was stock

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 2k.civic.si &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">"poorman r will make less power than the ls/vtec ur compresion is lowered alot with the pmr"

ya the whole 0.2 difference in compression makes such huge power gains
and in reality because my compression is a bit lower i can still run full timing advance and actually make more power on pump gas</TD></TR></TABLE>

I totally agree with this guy... .2 more compression isnt going to make amazing power... and if its that imprtant to you, mill the head before using a LS block... I would much rather run a little less compression and be able to give the motor all the timing it wants and not have to worry about detenation.
Ls blocks arent mean to rev high... most dynos ive seen, ls-vtec stop making power at about 7500...
But then again, a LS block does have a whole 37 more CC's than a GSR
LS-VTEC is an oxymoron.. its like saying a "Smart Dumbass"

In my opinion there is not benefit to building a LS-VTEC except for the blocks are cheaper.. but if you want any type of reliability, thre ges the price right out the window

heres what my car ran with some what of a "poor-mans" type r motor...
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1150071

 

"But then again, a LS block does have a whole 37 more CC's than a GSR "
thats why i went to a 81.50mm bore on my setup...to make up for the 1.8mm loss in stroke (87.2mmvs89mm)

with all the extra work involved in the ls/vtec buildup i was like why? got a junkyard b18c and went from there...much easier/cheaper...also if i had used the b18b i would have been afraid to spin those ls rods to 10k+....the gsr rods take it like a champ with the arp bolts

 

dont get me wrong the gsr block has potential just takes lil more work when doin a pmr to make it the same as or more than a ls/vtec and from the looks of it hes doin a budget build so the gsr block would be more reliable but if u want a lil more power and dont want to spend a whole lot of money then go with the ls/vtec but if u have plans to drop some money in ur engine then go with the gsr block

 

well, im in the same boat too. i have decided to go with an ls/vtec because of cost. pr3 pistons, arp headstuds and rod bolts, and a gsr head with itr cams and valvetrain.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 92WhiteEG &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


Ls blocks arent mean to rev high... most dynos ive seen, ls-vtec stop making power at about 7500...
tech.com/zerothread?id=1150071[/url]</TD></TR></TABLE>

you ever think of why they might have stopped making power at 7500rpm? prolly stock b16 or gsr cams is why it only made power to there.....

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 2k.civic.si &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">"poorman r will make less power than the ls/vtec ur compresion is lowered alot with the pmr"

ya the whole 0.2 difference in compression makes such huge power gains
and in reality because my compression is a bit lower i can still run full timing advance and actually make more power on pump gas</TD></TR></TABLE>

so your saying you can run a **** load more timing because of only .2 less c/r? please explain this..... and who said anything about pump and race gas. these are not hardcore crazy allmotor builds that need race gas.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 2k.civic.si &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">"But then again, a LS block does have a whole 37 more CC's than a GSR "
thats why i went to a 81.50mm bore on my setup...to make up for the 1.8mm loss in stroke (87.2mmvs89mm)

with all the extra work involved in the ls/vtec buildup i was like why? got a junkyard b18c and went from there...much easier/cheaper...also if i had used the b18b i would have been afraid to spin those ls rods to 10k+....the gsr rods take it like a champ with the arp bolts</TD></TR></TABLE>
cheaper and easier.... no. about the same amount of work, and less money for most people. and another thing, many people take there ls/vtec's and b20/vtec's up tp 9500rpm's with arp rod bolts all the time with no problems. dont be so sure about the gsr rods also.... i just had one snap at 8200rpm a few weeks ago. and honestly, how much of a difference is there between the pmr's r/s ratio and the ls/vtec's r/s ratio....

poor man's r or ls/vtec.... pretty close to the same thing. id just recommend whatever is cheaper, cuz either setup can be just as reliable as the other.

 

For a street car the extra torque from the LS Crank is quite nice.

Oh and by the way I know alot of people that spin rod bearings in their GSRs.

I wonder if the "special" thinner bearings contribute to this. Hmmm.

Ever wonder why domestics use larger bearings in motors that spin higher rpms?
More than a coincidence&gt;? Maybe so.

I still have love for the old GSR though.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by poorman-type-r &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">dont get me wrong the gsr block has potential just takes lil more work when doin a pmr to make it the same as or more than a ls/vtec </TD></TR></TABLE>
More power!?!?! Where is this proven???? This is not true.. maybe some have but i know plenty of poor mans using gsr blocks that make plenty more power than a LS-vtec..
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EG-B20vtec &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">For a street car the extra torque from the LS Crank is quite nice. </TD></TR></TABLE>
ummmm, I made 135 with my gsr block, show me some dyno graphs of 1.8s making more torque on stock internals... and wont fight this point

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hurleyboarder21 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> you ever think of why they might have stopped making power at 7500rpm? prolly stock b16 or gsr cams is why it only made power to there.....</TD></TR></TABLE>
umm wrong... off hand i know personally a motor that had 12.2-1 compression and TODA A cams who was reving to 9k.... he stopped making power at 7500... thats pathetic... he topped out at 190hrsp 128trq.... i know at 2 pmr that make more than that.. i would bet mine would be pretty damn close too (i had a fucked up axle at the time, the tuner said the way my car was pulling to the left, it was definitely effecting my numbers... still made 184, 135


on the reliablitly factor... yes a Ls-vtec can probaly be made as reliable.. only time will tell, to my knowledge i dont know any that have made it pass 30,000 miles
but its going to cost more than jsut sticking with a gsr block.. the ls-vtec that are reliable usually have oil squiters, block girdle, etc... put in which comes in gsr blocks already

so i would say:
Good "Bang for the Buck" = Ls-vtec
Best and Smartest "Bang for a little more Buck" = PMR

 

[QUOTE=92WhiteEG]
More power!?!?! Where is this proven???? This is not true.. maybe some have but i know plenty of poor mans using gsr blocks that make plenty more power than a LS-vtec..

ok read my post again both runnin completely stock the ls/vtec is a lil more torqu i know ur pmr is runin strong but u have cams pistons etc.... im talkin a stock point of view u proved u went 11's in 1/4 im not argueing wit u

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 92WhiteEG &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
umm wrong... off hand i know personally a motor that had 12.2-1 compression and TODA A cams who was reving to 9k.... he stopped making power at 7500... thats pathetic... he topped out at 190hrsp 128trq.... i know at 2 pmr that make more than that.. i would bet mine would be pretty damn close too (i had a fucked up axle at the time, the tuner said the way my car was pulling to the left, it was definitely effecting my numbers... still made 184, 135

</TD></TR></TABLE>

So you are tellin me that the powerband is uneffected by the cams, and has a lot to do with what your bottom end is. so if you put that head and cams on your bottom end, you would have made power to say 9k rpm? interesting....

dont get me wrong, i would go with a pmr IF i had the money. imo the ls/vtec is just a cheaper, way of creating the same power.

 

Heres my deal. I had to replace my B16 a few months ago so I was in this boat. I priced out an LS/VTEC swap. Now keep in mind I already had a B16 head and tranny to throw into the mix here. I then shopped around and found a BRAND NEW B18C5 short block assembly, which included the block, pumps, oil pan and everything else but the head and tranny. The Acura dealer wanted 2222.22 for it. This was hundreds less then what the LS would have cost me, and to top it off it came pre-assembled from Honda of Japan. No need to home some grease monkey slap together a bung of mismatched parts into a used block.

From the day I brought it home, it’s been a reliable turn key daily driver to boot.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JoeB18R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Heres my deal. I had to replace my B16 a few months ago so I was in this boat. I priced out an LS/VTEC swap. Now keep in mind I already had a B16 head and tranny to throw into the mix here. I then shopped around and found a BRAND NEW B18C5 short block assembly, which included the block, pumps, oil pan and everything else but the head and tranny. The Acura dealer wanted 2222.22 for it. This was hundreds less then what the LS would have cost me, and to top it off it came pre-assembled from Honda of Japan. No need to home some grease monkey slap together a bung of mismatched parts into a used block.

From the day I brought it home, it’s been a reliable turn key daily driver to boot.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm in the same boat you are.. I look at it this way, Honda spent $$$ in R&D designing the vtec block to live at higher rpm, the LS block did not get the same treatment. I'll be driving my vehicle on the street and track, I'm going with the B18c

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JoeB18R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Heres my deal. I had to replace my B16 a few months ago so I was in this boat. I priced out an LS/VTEC swap. Now keep in mind I already had a B16 head and tranny to throw into the mix here. I then shopped around and found a BRAND NEW B18C5 short block assembly, which included the block, pumps, oil pan and everything else but the head and tranny. The Acura dealer wanted 2222.22 for it. This was hundreds less then what the LS would have cost me, and to top it off it came pre-assembled from Honda of Japan. No need to home some grease monkey slap together a bung of mismatched parts into a used block.

From the day I brought it home, it’s been a reliable turn key daily driver to boot.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

how the hell is that hundreds less than an ls/vtec when u had 75% of the parts already? if you have the money for the complete itr shortblock then go for it. but i honestly cant figure out how gettin the itr shortblock from HONDA is gonna be cheaper.....

 

If you build the LS vtec the way that Vtec motors are supposed to come from the factory i dont see how it could not be as reliable as a VTEC motor from the factory? You guys see what im saying?

Ls bottom ends are cheap, GE kits are not too pricey, put together with CTR pistons with ARP rodbolts, with an LS crank and not to mention broken in right would leave you with a potential bottom end when mated to a nice head with some top end work you could have some serious power for cheap.

All that i would say at most to put together, knowing that you would probably assemble it yourself would cost you no more than 1500. Thats alot cheaper than the guy uptop who spent 2222 for a stock USDM Bottom end. I mean i would understand also on his part as hes not assembling it himself and how i would not trust someone else doing something like that (which would end up costing you up the *** for a trained individual to do it). You guys see what im saying?

 

guys keep it comin, soaking in info as I read.

to the sponge

P.S. I'm kinda leaning towards poor mans R cause of the work involved and reliablity. I know if you build it right from the start then it'll be fine, but the way I see it if it I build then both right from the start then the poor mans will still be more reliable


Modified by Lil Corb at 10:01 PM 2/21/2005

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BolivianFuego &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If you build the LS vtec the way that Vtec motors are supposed to come from the factory i dont see how it could not be as reliable as a VTEC motor from the factory? You guys see what im saying?

Ls bottom ends are cheap, GE kits are not too pricey, put together with CTR pistons with ARP rodbolts, with an LS crank and not to mention broken in right would leave you with a potential bottom end when mated to a nice head with some top end work you could have some serious power for cheap.

All that i would say at most to put together, knowing that you would probably assemble it yourself would cost you no more than 1500. Thats alot cheaper than the guy uptop who spent 2222 for a stock USDM Bottom end. I mean i would understand also on his part as hes not assembling it himself and how i would not trust someone else doing something like that (which would end up costing you up the *** for a trained individual to do it). You guys see what im saying? </TD></TR></TABLE>

I re-read what I wrote and it comes off as though I didnt clear this up. I meant the cost of the parts PLUS the cost of putting it together (no way I could do a job of that size) totaled more then buying my B18C5 short block outright from the dealership.

 

check out omnis 200whp b16.

 

some people dont want to use super high compression and crazy cams to get that figure/ plus there is more torque to be had with the b18

 

OMG this is horrible now......i have never had either of the 2 motors, ill be honest. But get ****** real......37cc's is not going to make this AMAZING ammount of tourqe, nor is a gsr going to spin 2,000rpm's higher......another problem with what you are all saying is "ls-vtec's" dont make power above 7,500. that is soooo ignorant, the difference between the 2 engines is so small you really cant justify this. I think you are all bench racing horribly......

people saying "i take gsr rods to 10k, and ls-vtec cant do that" is stupid, there are soooooooooooooo many varriables in EVERY setup that determine what rpm a motor will come apart, its not just the fact that a motor is a gsr block or ls-vtec. Im sure people with both have blown up a motor at 7500 and also taken both above 10k. And as far as power goes, i think unless you are great tuner you will see damn near the same results, or at least not enough to justify one over the other. well enough rambling, JUST GET WHAT FITS YOUR BUDGET, AND IS AVAILABLE......................................... now i wait to get flamed

 

Im definitely not bench racing since i have had both... me saying ls-vtec often dont make power over 7500 is simply from experience and many dyno charts ive looked at...

other than that you totally agree with me...
they probably will make about the same power... its these guys that say ls-vtec makes more power for sure are the ignorant

 

Its funny how you guys say "ls/vtec" like its a certain stock build. LS/Vtec w/ what cams? PMR with what cams? Torque with any 89mm crank will usually peak around 6k, however, HP can keep climbing to infinity given the rest of the engine is suited to breathe that well at a high rev range.

The PMR is an interesting concept, and ill agree that 37cc's isnt a ton, but every little bit helps when youre dealing with relatively small 1.8l engines.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 92WhiteEG &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
ummmm, I made 135 with my gsr block, show me some dyno graphs of 1.8s making more torque on stock internals... and wont fight this point
</TD></TR></TABLE>



Torque is in the bottom right hand corner. 81mm bore 89mm stroke, LS rods, OEM Pistons.