It looks like we will have to stay with the stock OP for now. So we need to make
do with what we have.

Does anyone really know just what makes these pumps break? I've heard a few
differant theory's. Harmonic's, Detonation, RPM, poor pump material seem to be
the big one's. I also wonder if hydrolock could have an effect or sucking a small
peice of crud past the pickup screen.

Steve

 

i would say rpm is the biggest factor

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RacerStev &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Harmonic's, RPM, poor pump material seem to be
the big one's.
Steve</TD></TR></TABLE>

my belief on the **** stock oil pumps.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Dturbocivic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

my belief on the **** stock oil pumps.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well, they weren't exactly designed for this application. I have heard bad things about some aftermarket units as well.......cough**ProDrive**cough....

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Lucky925l &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Well, they weren't exactly designed for this application. I have heard bad things about some aftermarket units as well.......cough**ProDrive**cough....</TD></TR></TABLE>


where is that old *** thread on what gary kubo says about prodrive pumps?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Dturbocivic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


where is that old *** thread on what gary kubo says about prodrive pumps?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm interested to hear this!

 

here it is.

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=232780

 

I never had a problem with my oem oil pump...

Mike...

 

It is harmonics that breaks the pumps. Make sure that everything is balanced.

I have used every pump on the market in the past and have found that The stock GSR pump works the best. We have spun that pump to more that 12k and never had a problem. I would not put a prodrive pump in my lawn mower. The a pieces of ****. Pro drive offered to give me 2 of there oil pumps last year. The agreement was for me to use them and write a testimonial about them. I told them if there pumps where so good why would I need two of them. I also told them to keep there parts.


Duck

 

Balance is one thing, how important is a dampner? I know of 3 Mopar pumps that
took a dump last year, pretty sure all were using some kind of UDP.

There is no aftermarket dampner for this engine, I'm thinking about going back to
the stocker...

Steve

 

I believe 100% that it is the harmonics caused by poor crank dampers and high rpms. Do yourself a favor. Have everything balanced perfectly, and run a good damper. Art sells them. Also, anyone using the Toda gear?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by aggressivemotorsports &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I'm interested to hear this!</TD></TR></TABLE>

Here is another thread:

https://honda-tech.com/zero...age=1

 

Broke a Toda gear. Use an ATI balancer

 

These are all the reasons why i tried to have the wet sump system allowed in NHRA.
I Emailed them all these posts about oil pump failures just so they can see first hand what we go through.
It's not like everyone is gonna run out and buy a wet sump system,but for those of us who can afford to run one for a little reassurance should be able to.

OK everyone is saying this is a street derived class,but they do sell streetable wetsumps,and Z10 can customize one to your car.75 percent of the cars in this class aren't street driven cars anyway.At one point in time they might have been,but some no longer are for various reasons.
maybe they need to make a new class (STREET BOOST)so they can leave SFWD alone.

I WANT MY CAKE AND EAT IT TO DAMMIT! (JK)

 

Really good thread. Seems I need to toss the UDP and get a real damper of some kind. I hope ATI wants to try something new......

Steve

 

Steve , We are running ATI's damper on our H22 - preformed very well.

 

Just got off of ATI's site, some really good info on there!


http://www.atiperformanceprodu...n.htm

Steve

 

We ran a small block Chevy balancer from ATI. The nice thing about it is one it has and SFI number and the hub is removable so they can make it fit a bunch of applications.

 

Hmm, there site says that each application is differant depending on the
weight of the rods, pistons and the rpm. You would think a V8 pully
would be miles away from a high reving 4 clyinder. I'll give em a call
in the morning, looks like I'll be snowed in anyway...

I'm also getting the impression that harmonics are only one part of the
overall problem. Last season I saw pumps break on cars with dampers as
well as stock pully's.

Steve

 

i had a unorthodox race pully on my car when i shattered my stock type r oil pump, so i think harmonics have alot to do with it. that was a year and a half ago since then i been running the prodrive oil pump with a stock pully and shifting at 8500 rpms and so far i have had no probelms(knocking on wood). im not sticking up for prodrive because i read all the testimonals about them. i read somewhere also(i'll try to find it) that when the stock pump is reved past 8500 it starts to expands a little and this can also cause it to shatter.

 

Its amazing what fluid dynamics does when an oil pump that was designed for a certain flow is over revd by 35+%.... no matter what the gear is made out of....

Cavitation is the biggest problem....

Howard

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DontBlink &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i had a unorthodox race pully on my car when i shattered my stock type r oil pump, </TD></TR></TABLE>


i also used to run an unorthadox pully on my car till i shatterd a stock ls pump @8500 rpm.

i belive the unorthadox pulley is ****. the pulley doesnt have any "rubber" built into it, to help absorb harmonics. thus breaking your pump easier.

 

but than again.....some people swear by the ctr crank pulley(which also has no "rubber" to absorb anything")


people should take the time to balance the rotating assembly. and also use a quality harmonic dampener, to ensure the harmonics will be kept to a minimum.

 

i broke two oil pumps because of a piece of crap unorthodox pulley. put the stock balancer back on and did not have a problem for over two years. when i started looking at the gyrotor gears in the factory oil pump i noticed that there was little to no clearance between them. i came to the conclusion that the unorthodox pulley was causing the crankshaft to flex from the #1 maincap out to the end because of not being balanced causing the gears to collide with each other. the gears shatter like glass because they are extremely hardened to prevent wear.

 

My UDP is really kinda differant, it's held onto the the crank by a collet. Tighten
the bolts up and it tightens onto the crank. The reason they do it this way is
Chysler dosn't use a keyway to locate the pulley, it just press's on there.

Some things I noticed while takeing the engine down. There was some wear on the
drive flats on the OP gear, the wear was on both the drive and coast side (???) of the flats. So I tested the hardness of the gear, it is much softer then a file, very easy to cut.

The number 1 main bearing was worn at the very end, just behind the pulley. I'm
guessing there was some serious vibration going on. Funny thing, my crank
trigger is mounted on the pulley. The sensor needs to be about .050 away to work,
there was no contact between the trigger and the pickup. You would think with
this much vibration the sensor would hit.

My pump went the pass after I raised the rev limiter from 8100 to 8500 rpm.
The data log shows the pump going out right after the nitrous hit on the next pass.
So it could have been the rpm or it could have been detonation from the juice or
harmonics from the balancer.

Howard: is ther any way to prevent the cavitation besides slowing the pump down?
This pump has gone almost 10000 rpm on other engine's w/o a damper....

I called ATI today, they have the drawings to build a damper for me, BIG dollars
though, $500. Is this out of line?

Thanks for the help all!!

Steve