Honda EP3 vs Mini S vs Focus SVT vs Mazda 3 S
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From: Siege Perilous
Honda EP3 vs Mini S vs Focus SVT vs Mazda 3 S
Looking over the specifications, listening to people and reading reviews, I cannot understand why we (and everybody else) slam the USDM EP3 Si while at the same time appearing to love the Mini S, the Focus SVT and the Mazda 3 S.
By the time you equip these other cars like the EP3, they cost more and they still appear not to perform quite as well in most scenario.
Were our expectations just too high? Did we expect it to be a Type R replacement or something? Why couldn't it compete with its real USDM competition?
Why on earth would the Mazda 3 be counted a success while the EP3 is counted as a marketing failure?
By the time you equip these other cars like the EP3, they cost more and they still appear not to perform quite as well in most scenario.
Were our expectations just too high? Did we expect it to be a Type R replacement or something? Why couldn't it compete with its real USDM competition?
Why on earth would the Mazda 3 be counted a success while the EP3 is counted as a marketing failure?
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Re: Honda EP3 vs Mini S vs Focus SVT vs Mazda 3 S (George Knighton)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by George Knighton »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Why on earth would the Mazda 3 be counted a success while the EP3 is counted as a marketing failure?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Just look at sales figures. Mazda3 is what 04 and up. Si is 02 and up. Even with that difference i see toooonns more mazda3's then i do Si's. And a lot people unfortunately think the Si is just plain ugly.
Why on earth would the Mazda 3 be counted a success while the EP3 is counted as a marketing failure?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Just look at sales figures. Mazda3 is what 04 and up. Si is 02 and up. Even with that difference i see toooonns more mazda3's then i do Si's. And a lot people unfortunately think the Si is just plain ugly.
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Re: Honda EP3 vs Mini S vs Focus SVT vs Mazda 3 S (whiteDCfiver)
I see it as a combination of 2 things.
1) Appearance...a stock EP3 just flat out isn't a great looking car.
2) Expectations...when Honda puts an SI badge on one of their car, the knowledable public expects something great. It must in some way be the leader in its respected class.
1) Appearance...a stock EP3 just flat out isn't a great looking car.
2) Expectations...when Honda puts an SI badge on one of their car, the knowledable public expects something great. It must in some way be the leader in its respected class.
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From: Western, ma, USA
I personally dont like it mainly because it doesnt perform as well as i thought it would. I test drove one and liked it but it didn't really excite me when you floor it.
Then i test drove a Type S and it just seemed like 2 different cars. People expected alot more out of the Si name badge. Plus IMO it resembles a ford focus hatch
Then i test drove a Type S and it just seemed like 2 different cars. People expected alot more out of the Si name badge. Plus IMO it resembles a ford focus hatch
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From: OH
Re: Honda EP3 vs Mini S vs Focus SVT vs Mazda 3 S (George Knighton)
While the EP3 Si is just as good as of car as the ones you listed, it was in many ways a step down from the 99-00 Si it replaced. Not in performance, but definitely in looks and suspension design.
There were a few things I didn't like about the Ep3 at all--the main one being that minivan like seating and cowl length. There isn't a single non-minivan that I know of that has a dashboard-to-window length as large as the Ep3.
I like the rear-end styling of the Ep3, but the front is not very pleasing.
I think folks just expected more from Honda. While I definitely like it more than the Ford Focus--the focus was a step up from the previous generation while the Honda was not. But I still think the Ford is a lot uglier--if that's possible.
There were a few things I didn't like about the Ep3 at all--the main one being that minivan like seating and cowl length. There isn't a single non-minivan that I know of that has a dashboard-to-window length as large as the Ep3.
I like the rear-end styling of the Ep3, but the front is not very pleasing.
I think folks just expected more from Honda. While I definitely like it more than the Ford Focus--the focus was a step up from the previous generation while the Honda was not. But I still think the Ford is a lot uglier--if that's possible.
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From: All Motor, CA, USA
Re: Honda EP3 vs Mini S vs Focus SVT vs Mazda 3 S (Todd00)
EP3=$19,200=160hp
DC5=23,000= 210 hp
They should have made the EP3 come with the K20A2 and the DC5 come with the K20A...And used the TSX suspension..Then it would be awesome
DC5=23,000= 210 hp
They should have made the EP3 come with the K20A2 and the DC5 come with the K20A...And used the TSX suspension..Then it would be awesome
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Re: Honda EP3 vs Mini S vs Focus SVT vs Mazda 3 S (Halo)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Halo »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">EP3=$19,200=160hp
DC5=23,000= 210 hp
They should have made the EP3 come with the K20A2 and the DC5 come with the K20A...And used the TSX suspension..Then it would be awesome
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Correct, though the EP3 normally sells for under $17,000. There's a huge difference in price between the EP3 and cars like the Type-S or Cooper S.
DC5=23,000= 210 hp
They should have made the EP3 come with the K20A2 and the DC5 come with the K20A...And used the TSX suspension..Then it would be awesome
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Correct, though the EP3 normally sells for under $17,000. There's a huge difference in price between the EP3 and cars like the Type-S or Cooper S.
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Re: Honda EP3 vs Mini S vs Focus SVT vs Mazda 3 S (jimmyjames)
but the price difference is justified..even though it sells for around $17 it does not change the fact that list is still over $19..Honda wants 19K for what?..A 160 hp engine and crap suspension design? If I was sane I would have just bought a used 91 EF..I took a gamble on this car and I regret it, I will never buy anything newer than 2000 again...I will enjoy my car for another couple years and buy a 91 Si hatch.. 
All this new crap is for the birds
All this new crap is for the birds
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From: Siege Perilous
Re: Honda EP3 vs Mini S vs Focus SVT vs Mazda 3 S (Halo)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Halo »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">but the price difference is justified..even though it sells for around $17 it does not change the fact that list is still over $19..Honda wants 19K for what?..A 160 hp engine and crap suspension design? </TD></TR></TABLE>
But... The other cars I cited are called successes and they don't really have any better a suspension or motor.
I think that, as Honda people, we're a little spoiled.
But... The other cars I cited are called successes and they don't really have any better a suspension or motor.
I think that, as Honda people, we're a little spoiled.
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From: Irvine, CA, USA
a few items here...
marketing and expectations.
as mentioned before, the expectations were very high because of the "SI" association. Honda of america dropped the ball. the SI on a Civic will never mean what it used to as long as it shares a lion's share of it's parts with the RSX. the RSX demands a higher premium and profit for honda. they are not going to allow the SI to east into that on a large scale.
next, have you really ever seen the SI marketed or advertised the way the MINI or mazda3 are? the mini campaign has been outwardly slick from the getgo and people eat it up. i can't even recall a major auto mag test driving the SI (outside of SCC and GRM), let alone PRAISING it.
now, had the 3 been available when i looked at my SI, i may have considered it. the mazdaspeed protege was high on my list, but i couldn't get it at s-plan costs.
the SVT was a GREAT car, but a few things: resale, warranty(less than standard), and after 5 years, it's STILL going to be a ford. BTDT.
the mini is a maintenance nightmare. a good friend of mine owns a shop that caters to minis and they are great to look at and drive, but fixing them is just an on-going horrible experience.
the new SI was targeted towards an aging crowd that appreciated teh former models. i get it. it suits me, it's build to last, and it holds it's value pretty well. what else do you want for under 17k?
marketing and expectations.
as mentioned before, the expectations were very high because of the "SI" association. Honda of america dropped the ball. the SI on a Civic will never mean what it used to as long as it shares a lion's share of it's parts with the RSX. the RSX demands a higher premium and profit for honda. they are not going to allow the SI to east into that on a large scale.
next, have you really ever seen the SI marketed or advertised the way the MINI or mazda3 are? the mini campaign has been outwardly slick from the getgo and people eat it up. i can't even recall a major auto mag test driving the SI (outside of SCC and GRM), let alone PRAISING it.
now, had the 3 been available when i looked at my SI, i may have considered it. the mazdaspeed protege was high on my list, but i couldn't get it at s-plan costs.
the SVT was a GREAT car, but a few things: resale, warranty(less than standard), and after 5 years, it's STILL going to be a ford. BTDT.
the mini is a maintenance nightmare. a good friend of mine owns a shop that caters to minis and they are great to look at and drive, but fixing them is just an on-going horrible experience.
the new SI was targeted towards an aging crowd that appreciated teh former models. i get it. it suits me, it's build to last, and it holds it's value pretty well. what else do you want for under 17k?
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Re: Honda EP3 vs Mini S vs Focus SVT vs Mazda 3 S (George Knighton)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by George Knighton »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">.
I think that, as Honda people, we're a little spoiled.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Are you saying that the EP is considered a failure among us Honda guys or in general view of the automotive press?
I agree, as Hona folks we're a little spoiled.
Some of it is culture too. All the Honda guys yakked at the 'low' redline no 'real vtec' Si motor. A lot of the Honda culture is built around 'real vtec'. Personally, I *MUCH* prefer the powerband of my car compared to the old coupe Si. But I know that I am in the minority here. There is also a sense that this motor is slower than the older Si motor (speaking in 1/4mile terms). In reality, it is probably the weight difference between the cars.
Most of the demographic that buys Civic Si's could care less about the suspension performance as long as it is lowered from stock height. But if you keep reading about how the mcstrut suspension sucks, you'll start buying into it. I'm not saying that the wishbone isn't better, it's just that all the other cars in this class and in classes above all have front mcstrut suspensions.
Oh, and market research has already proven that hatchbacks just don't sell as well as coupes and sedans here in the States.
I think that, as Honda people, we're a little spoiled.
</TD></TR></TABLE>Are you saying that the EP is considered a failure among us Honda guys or in general view of the automotive press?
I agree, as Hona folks we're a little spoiled.
Some of it is culture too. All the Honda guys yakked at the 'low' redline no 'real vtec' Si motor. A lot of the Honda culture is built around 'real vtec'. Personally, I *MUCH* prefer the powerband of my car compared to the old coupe Si. But I know that I am in the minority here. There is also a sense that this motor is slower than the older Si motor (speaking in 1/4mile terms). In reality, it is probably the weight difference between the cars.
Most of the demographic that buys Civic Si's could care less about the suspension performance as long as it is lowered from stock height. But if you keep reading about how the mcstrut suspension sucks, you'll start buying into it. I'm not saying that the wishbone isn't better, it's just that all the other cars in this class and in classes above all have front mcstrut suspensions.
Oh, and market research has already proven that hatchbacks just don't sell as well as coupes and sedans here in the States.
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Re: (kung fu grip)
No offense kung fu grip..but have you seen the latest blue book values for the Si? You may want to look them over, because to me they don't look very good?
Sorry Burgh but there is no excuse to go from a wishbone to mac design..This design is has caused allot of grief for everyone!
Sorry Burgh but there is no excuse to go from a wishbone to mac design..This design is has caused allot of grief for everyone!
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Re: Honda EP3 vs Mini S vs Focus SVT vs Mazda 3 S (jimmyjames)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jimmyjames »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Correct, though the EP3 normally sells for under $17,000. There's a huge difference in price between the EP3 and cars like the Type-S or Cooper S.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Can you please confirm something for me? Is this price (sells for under 17K) for a 2005 Si, or another model year???
Not only is the Cooper unreliable (like its Parent Company BMW) and ugly, but the name is just as hideous. Honda has proven itself time and again, and has earned my loyalty. Regarding the other marques (Ford, Mazda or Mini Cooper S), as far as reliability goes, run don't walk! Just because one sees more of Ford's Focus (or is that Blur), Mazda 3s and Cooper S' than Sis, doesn't mean they are better cars. I for one am very happy I don't see Sis out there like the other other bland brands. The way people view the Si is the same way I view the Blur, Mazda 3, Scions, Coopers, etc. To each his own.
Are Honda owners spoiled? Understatement!
Correct, though the EP3 normally sells for under $17,000. There's a huge difference in price between the EP3 and cars like the Type-S or Cooper S.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Can you please confirm something for me? Is this price (sells for under 17K) for a 2005 Si, or another model year???
Not only is the Cooper unreliable (like its Parent Company BMW) and ugly, but the name is just as hideous. Honda has proven itself time and again, and has earned my loyalty. Regarding the other marques (Ford, Mazda or Mini Cooper S), as far as reliability goes, run don't walk! Just because one sees more of Ford's Focus (or is that Blur), Mazda 3s and Cooper S' than Sis, doesn't mean they are better cars. I for one am very happy I don't see Sis out there like the other other bland brands. The way people view the Si is the same way I view the Blur, Mazda 3, Scions, Coopers, etc. To each his own.
Are Honda owners spoiled? Understatement!
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Re: (Halo)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Halo »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Sorry Burgh but there is no excuse to go from a wishbone to mac design..This design is has caused allot of grief for everyone! </TD></TR></TABLE>
Honda has plenty of excuse to go to a mc design - cheaper overall, and more safe in a crash. Plus they realized that 99.99% of their demographic couldn't tell the difference if they were riding on a mcstrut vs wishbone suspension.
Seriously, how many Si owners do you know who actually care about the handling performance of the car? As long as it's slammed, they're happy. I probably see a billion threads here and elsewhere about lowering the car while maintaining a nice, stock-like ride. Not that there's anything wrong with that at all. To each his/her own. But I'm just making the point that Honda figured that the majority of their buyers wouldn't care.
Sorry Burgh but there is no excuse to go from a wishbone to mac design..This design is has caused allot of grief for everyone!
</TD></TR></TABLE>Honda has plenty of excuse to go to a mc design - cheaper overall, and more safe in a crash. Plus they realized that 99.99% of their demographic couldn't tell the difference if they were riding on a mcstrut vs wishbone suspension.
Seriously, how many Si owners do you know who actually care about the handling performance of the car? As long as it's slammed, they're happy. I probably see a billion threads here and elsewhere about lowering the car while maintaining a nice, stock-like ride. Not that there's anything wrong with that at all. To each his/her own. But I'm just making the point that Honda figured that the majority of their buyers wouldn't care.
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Re: (Burgh)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Burgh »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Seriously, how many Si owners do you know who actually care about the handling performance of the car? </TD></TR></TABLE>
every single one I know
Seriously, how many Si owners do you know who actually care about the handling performance of the car? </TD></TR></TABLE>
every single one I know
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From: Irvine, CA, USA
Re: (Halo)
no offense taken. i think the resale is better than most of the cars in the segment. of course, there is the mini, and i know 2 people who actually made money buying and selling that car. residual and depreciation are all very good on the hondas and this model isn't much different. considering what i paid for it and the mileage on it, i'm still ahead and i've only owned it for ~18 months. go off the NADA. blue book is skewed.
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Re: (kung fu grip)
the differences between a double wishbone (DW) and macpherson suspension (MS) ARE very subtle and you won't really notice them in day-to-day driving. when you push them, hard, you can notice some faint differences.
one of the best advantages to DW is the increasing camber you get when you corner, which offers a crisp feel and better response. that is, as the wishbones travel their arc, the reaction of the geometry is to effect more negative camber. the MS does not do this and reacts the opposite way.
one of biggest DISadvantages to DW is packaging. you need more room to have a proper DW suspension. a MS is wonderfully compact and efficient.
another advantage to MS is adjustability. camber, castor and toe can all be adjusted far more easily than on a DW.
DW are a little more complicated. there is arguably more sprung weight and moving parts in a DW design. MS offers the damper as steering component and fewer moving parts.
those are the few that pop into my head currently. i've tuned and competitively competed both DW (mazda miata, acura integra) and MS (Mazda BF and BG platforms) with good results (i like to think so, anyways). each has things i liked and hated. i thing the MS suspension are easier to work on and fine tune, where the DW require less tuning but are harder to work on. it's a preference.
i think most people frown on the new MS setup on the hondas is a case of sour grapes. most of the problems i've seen had to do with people a) misinstalling the components b) exceeding the limits of the geometry c) uninterested to research the possibilities.
one of the best advantages to DW is the increasing camber you get when you corner, which offers a crisp feel and better response. that is, as the wishbones travel their arc, the reaction of the geometry is to effect more negative camber. the MS does not do this and reacts the opposite way.
one of biggest DISadvantages to DW is packaging. you need more room to have a proper DW suspension. a MS is wonderfully compact and efficient.
another advantage to MS is adjustability. camber, castor and toe can all be adjusted far more easily than on a DW.
DW are a little more complicated. there is arguably more sprung weight and moving parts in a DW design. MS offers the damper as steering component and fewer moving parts.
those are the few that pop into my head currently. i've tuned and competitively competed both DW (mazda miata, acura integra) and MS (Mazda BF and BG platforms) with good results (i like to think so, anyways). each has things i liked and hated. i thing the MS suspension are easier to work on and fine tune, where the DW require less tuning but are harder to work on. it's a preference.
i think most people frown on the new MS setup on the hondas is a case of sour grapes. most of the problems i've seen had to do with people a) misinstalling the components b) exceeding the limits of the geometry c) uninterested to research the possibilities.
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Re: (stephenSI)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by stephenSI »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Mac struts suck. That's why BMWs are such bad handlers.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Apples to oranges. BMWs are RWD cars with a better weight bias. Hondas are not.
Apples to oranges. BMWs are RWD cars with a better weight bias. Hondas are not.
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From: Irvine, CA, USA
Re: (stephenSI)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by stephenSI »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Mac struts suck. That's why BMWs are such bad handlers.</TD></TR></TABLE>
i hope you're kidding.
i hope you're kidding.
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From: Atlanta, GA
Re: (Todd00)
^^^ Whoever said Beamers handle poorly has certainly never driven one worth a damn, i can assure you that the M cars handle better than most sports cars out there when you take into consideration the platform their built off of and the fact that they were meant to be sports luxery cars.
I can tell you that atleast in my opinion and from what ive gathered since the EP's release here, people didnt take to the new Si because bottom line, they were expecting a car BETTER than the EJ Si's...and they didnt get it. What they did get was something new, a new engine platform (K20), new suspension setup (balancing handling with crash test results and ride functionality)...basically, honda heard the cry from people that the Si should return to its hatchback heritage, so they gave it to you, the design was not popular but then again, it was withen the range of what people were asking for, a small hatchback that was shaped similar to the EJ/EK but with some modern tweeks...they did that and it just doesnt work out well (atleast to me).
And believe it or not, given the Si's market (the same market the SVT Focus and MazdaSpeed Protege are in just to name a couple), i'd say that the sales are fairly decent, its a car directed at specific people, people that wanted a SPORTS compact car, not just a compact econo car...
The EP isnt a failure, its just not popular, i think people confuse that. Its a car made for our niche of the market, the tuner world...and they've sold alot of them, im sure running along the lines of what they expected or it wouldnt have run its multi-year model life. Popularity will always be a killing point when it comes to discontinuing cars, and i bet alot of you guys would be all over a Civic Type-R here in the states, but did you know that just 2 years ago the CTR had its head on the chopping block? back when the Si was first released, they were ready to throw in the towel on the new CTR and call it a day...so honestly, failure it was not, and im certain in the future it will become a more popular car when people can get them under $10K...just watch.
I can tell you that atleast in my opinion and from what ive gathered since the EP's release here, people didnt take to the new Si because bottom line, they were expecting a car BETTER than the EJ Si's...and they didnt get it. What they did get was something new, a new engine platform (K20), new suspension setup (balancing handling with crash test results and ride functionality)...basically, honda heard the cry from people that the Si should return to its hatchback heritage, so they gave it to you, the design was not popular but then again, it was withen the range of what people were asking for, a small hatchback that was shaped similar to the EJ/EK but with some modern tweeks...they did that and it just doesnt work out well (atleast to me).
And believe it or not, given the Si's market (the same market the SVT Focus and MazdaSpeed Protege are in just to name a couple), i'd say that the sales are fairly decent, its a car directed at specific people, people that wanted a SPORTS compact car, not just a compact econo car...
The EP isnt a failure, its just not popular, i think people confuse that. Its a car made for our niche of the market, the tuner world...and they've sold alot of them, im sure running along the lines of what they expected or it wouldnt have run its multi-year model life. Popularity will always be a killing point when it comes to discontinuing cars, and i bet alot of you guys would be all over a Civic Type-R here in the states, but did you know that just 2 years ago the CTR had its head on the chopping block? back when the Si was first released, they were ready to throw in the towel on the new CTR and call it a day...so honestly, failure it was not, and im certain in the future it will become a more popular car when people can get them under $10K...just watch.
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From: Arlington // Madison Motorsports, VA, USA
Re: (Burgh)
This very issue has been hashed out several times on vtec.net and I'm consistenly one of the anti EP people. The EP is in a lot of ways a better car than the 99-00 Si was. Tremendously improved steering, better seats and interior, stiffer chassis,better gearbox, and a more flexible powerband. But unfortunately it falls flat on its face in several areas.
Price
The Si is supposed to be a sport compact performance car. With performance cars in general, if you pay more, you should get more performance. The EP3 at MSRP was $2000 more expensive than the Si it replaced and it was not appreciably faster.
Style
No one could argue that the EP3 styling has been polarizing at best. Had the styling been better I think many more people could've have overlooked some of the EP3's shortcomings.
Suspension
Some who have suggested most owners wouldn't know the difference between double-wishbones and struts would be correct. However, the double wishbone suspension has been a calling card and big selling point for Civics for a decade. To turn back on something that Honda owners identified with and were proud of was asking for trouble. When it turned out the new strut suspension cars don't handle as well in modified trim as the double wishbone cars it was a big negative in the eyes of Honda enthusiasts.
Some may not believe this is true but even Realtime Racing dumped their RSX's after one season to go back to double wishbones with the TSX.
Overall performance
The EP3 was severely hampered by poor stock tires and brake pads and as such suffered defeat in just about every comparo it showed up in. While a lot of the performance Hondas do not have the out and out best performance in class all of the successful ones were near the front. The EP3 was not.
The competition in this segment has also raised the bar since 2000 when the Si was king. The Mini Cooper, WRX, Neon SRT, Mazdaspeed Protege, Focus SVT, and even the Hyundai Tiburon have all dont something very well and as such all of them have taken sales away from the Si. The Mini with its super popular retro styling, the SRT4 with its excellent speed/money ratio, the Tiburon with its reasonable price and styling, and the list goes on.
Put all of these factors together as well as a few others such as the lack of character (low redline) and higher weight (I thought hatches were supposed to be light?) and its no surprise the EP3 didn't sell well. For my money the three biggest factors were the styling, the price and the fact that Honda tried to refine the car too much which turned it into a somewhat boring car in comparison to some of its more raucous brethren.
Hopefully AHM understands why they failed and won't make the same mistake with the new forthcoming coupe Si.
Price
The Si is supposed to be a sport compact performance car. With performance cars in general, if you pay more, you should get more performance. The EP3 at MSRP was $2000 more expensive than the Si it replaced and it was not appreciably faster.
Style
No one could argue that the EP3 styling has been polarizing at best. Had the styling been better I think many more people could've have overlooked some of the EP3's shortcomings.
Suspension
Some who have suggested most owners wouldn't know the difference between double-wishbones and struts would be correct. However, the double wishbone suspension has been a calling card and big selling point for Civics for a decade. To turn back on something that Honda owners identified with and were proud of was asking for trouble. When it turned out the new strut suspension cars don't handle as well in modified trim as the double wishbone cars it was a big negative in the eyes of Honda enthusiasts.
Some may not believe this is true but even Realtime Racing dumped their RSX's after one season to go back to double wishbones with the TSX.
Overall performance
The EP3 was severely hampered by poor stock tires and brake pads and as such suffered defeat in just about every comparo it showed up in. While a lot of the performance Hondas do not have the out and out best performance in class all of the successful ones were near the front. The EP3 was not.
The competition in this segment has also raised the bar since 2000 when the Si was king. The Mini Cooper, WRX, Neon SRT, Mazdaspeed Protege, Focus SVT, and even the Hyundai Tiburon have all dont something very well and as such all of them have taken sales away from the Si. The Mini with its super popular retro styling, the SRT4 with its excellent speed/money ratio, the Tiburon with its reasonable price and styling, and the list goes on.
Put all of these factors together as well as a few others such as the lack of character (low redline) and higher weight (I thought hatches were supposed to be light?) and its no surprise the EP3 didn't sell well. For my money the three biggest factors were the styling, the price and the fact that Honda tried to refine the car too much which turned it into a somewhat boring car in comparison to some of its more raucous brethren.
Hopefully AHM understands why they failed and won't make the same mistake with the new forthcoming coupe Si.