NASA TT running in HPDE groups
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From: North VA
NASA TT running in HPDE groups
I recently found out that NASA Mid Atlantic will be running the Time Trail in the HPDE 3 run group (at least for VIR). I looked at the NASA-OH/IN TT rules and it appears they run in HPDE 4.
Does anyone else feel that people on hot laps should not be running in a HPDE group? If you were covered by insurance I’d assume that goes out the window. The idea that people will be on a hot lap during a HPDE run group doesn’t sound like a good combination to me. What do the other HPDE 3 & 4 participants think?
Does anyone else feel that people on hot laps should not be running in a HPDE group? If you were covered by insurance I’d assume that goes out the window. The idea that people will be on a hot lap during a HPDE run group doesn’t sound like a good combination to me. What do the other HPDE 3 & 4 participants think?
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From: Now employed again in Roanoke, VA
Re: NASA TT running in HPDE groups (SlopeSurfer)
We'll, I am planning on doing it. It is offered at the Lowes event which will my first for this year. Keep in mind that NASA's advanced (HPDE 3) group is, in a sense, a little more "advanced" than other DEs. An instructor is never on board (unless arranged) and passing is allowed anywhere with a point by.
The only concern that I have is that people participating in the TT might become a little red misted when they get held up by slower cars and get a little dangerous. Personally, I manage to find many clear laps each session and should have plenty of opportunity to put down my best lap without worrying about getting held up.
They rules are also pretty clear about 4-wheels off = no times. So there is some incentive for folks to keep it under control. It will be interesting to see how NASA coordinates this and if they put down any additional ground rules to keep everybody safe and happy.
The only concern that I have is that people participating in the TT might become a little red misted when they get held up by slower cars and get a little dangerous. Personally, I manage to find many clear laps each session and should have plenty of opportunity to put down my best lap without worrying about getting held up.
They rules are also pretty clear about 4-wheels off = no times. So there is some incentive for folks to keep it under control. It will be interesting to see how NASA coordinates this and if they put down any additional ground rules to keep everybody safe and happy.
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From: japizona
Re: NASA TT running in HPDE groups (SlopeSurfer)
as long as good judgement is being used i dont see what the big deal is.. the rules are all still the same.
NOTE: I most certainly do not condone "racing" among DE groups have pitted in out of many run sessions because i felt the traffic around me was begining to lose thier cool.
NOTE: I most certainly do not condone "racing" among DE groups have pitted in out of many run sessions because i felt the traffic around me was begining to lose thier cool.
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From: Raleigh, NC
Seems pretty hypocritical to preach no lap timing, then put a group of people timing their laps on track with you.
I'm not surprised at the decision though. It seems to follow the practice of putting as many cars on track (and in a weekend) as possible.
I'm not surprised at the decision though. It seems to follow the practice of putting as many cars on track (and in a weekend) as possible.
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From: japizona
Re: (JeffS)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JeffS »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Seems pretty hypocritical to preach no lap timing, then put a group of people timing their laps on track with you.
I'm not surprised at the decision though. It seems to follow the practice of putting as many cars on track (and in a weekend) as possible.</TD></TR></TABLE>
agreed, without potential for the cars to making clean laps, it seems improbable that good judgement will occur within heavy trafffic.
I'm not surprised at the decision though. It seems to follow the practice of putting as many cars on track (and in a weekend) as possible.</TD></TR></TABLE>
agreed, without potential for the cars to making clean laps, it seems improbable that good judgement will occur within heavy trafffic.
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From: richmond, va, usa
Re: (R you serious)
Y'all,
I think a little clarification is needed here.
First of all, NASA has limits to the numbers of cars that we put on track at any given time. This does require some judgement on the Director's part taking into consideration the length and layout of track. Make no mistake that the reason we have introduced TT in the Mid-Atlantic (used to be Virginia) Region is purely as an additional way to have fun. We have wait lists for every HPDE 3 group without TT. We have been approached by many drivers about doing timing so we figured we would offer it.
As of right now, HPDE 3 has a wait list and only two cars have signed up for TT at VIR.
Time Trial participants have to adhere to the same rules that everyone else does within the group. Passing can only occur with a point bye. If that rule is broken there are consequences. If a car goes four wheels off they lose all times for the session.
People thought we were nuts when we allowed passing anywhere with a point by in HPDE 3. We always knew that the additional privilge would result in a higher level of driver skill because situational awareness would be increased. This has proven to be true and now several other groups are copying NASA. NASA, in general is very forward thinking. This makes some uncomfortable at times but rest assured we do not do things without thinking about them from every angle. TT has been running in NASA OH, CA for three years without problems and the drivers love it.
With that said NASA Mid Atlantic has always listened intently to it's members/customers. We are here to organize events that are fun and make people feel comfortable. If the TT is not something that the members want then we won't do it within the HPDE groups.
We will not run Timing during the HPDE 3 session at VIR, but would like input from you guys because we still think it is another way to have fun in the future.
It is my personal opinion that the TT competitiors would be able to co-exist without issue within HPDE 3 or HPDE 4 groups.
I understand and respect the opinions of those skeptical of the concept but I cannot tell you how many times very vocal people have said that NASA was being unsafe only to be proven wrong when a concept was put into practice.
The term "blood bath" was used in this very forum four years ago when we proposed to put "kids" on the track at speed during a Hyper Drive mini HPDE session occurring at Hyper Fest. We have put over 700 people throught HYper Drive sessions and have had no injuries and only three incidents. None of which was metal to metal. This is right in line with regular stats from the HPDE 1 groups.
NASA is unique in that we have both school and racing on the same weekend. 5 years ago this was a radical concept and one that the experts predicted would create carnage because they felt that HPDE students would be in a racing frame of mind because there was racing at the track that weekend. I never did quite see the logic in that one but the "experts" were proven wrong and now we are praised for having such an innovative format.
NASA was the first to allow passing anywhere on the track with a point bye. This too was a radical concept 5 years ago and the "experts" predicted metal to metal carnage as far as the eye could see. In 5 seasons we have had two metal to metal incidents in our HPDEs (actually one was a rubber to rubber with no damage and the other created a very very minor ding in a rear quarter panel) and both of those were in the Instructor groups perpetrated by guest instructors from other groups under a provisional status.
There is a reason NASA has the excellent safety record that it does. Our expectations are high of our instructors, students and racers and the expectations are well communicated and understood. We enforce rules when those expectations are not met, and we respect our customers and expect them to respect those around them at an event.
Due to the fact that we had only two TT people want to participate, I assume that the demand isn't really out there for it but I would offer up one observation.
Competition, itself, is not a catalyst for unsafe driving practices. On the contrary, competition helps to better refine skill levels if there is solid foundation in the first place.
I am looking forward to seeing everyone at the track in Feb. It looks to be a REALLY good and fun season.
As always NASA wants to hear opinions, suggestions and ideas, provided they are put forth in a way that is positive, productive and not injurious. We have a wonderfully talented, reasonable and creative group of people that we are honored to have as members. NASA recognizes this and has put into practice many suggestions we have gotten.
If you have a direct question please email us for an assured response. My daily schedule doesn't always permit forum surfing so a post may not be responded to quickly or at all. Best to email us or call us.
My best to you all.
Thanks and Peace,
Chris Cobetto
Director NASA-MA
I think a little clarification is needed here.
First of all, NASA has limits to the numbers of cars that we put on track at any given time. This does require some judgement on the Director's part taking into consideration the length and layout of track. Make no mistake that the reason we have introduced TT in the Mid-Atlantic (used to be Virginia) Region is purely as an additional way to have fun. We have wait lists for every HPDE 3 group without TT. We have been approached by many drivers about doing timing so we figured we would offer it.
As of right now, HPDE 3 has a wait list and only two cars have signed up for TT at VIR.
Time Trial participants have to adhere to the same rules that everyone else does within the group. Passing can only occur with a point bye. If that rule is broken there are consequences. If a car goes four wheels off they lose all times for the session.
People thought we were nuts when we allowed passing anywhere with a point by in HPDE 3. We always knew that the additional privilge would result in a higher level of driver skill because situational awareness would be increased. This has proven to be true and now several other groups are copying NASA. NASA, in general is very forward thinking. This makes some uncomfortable at times but rest assured we do not do things without thinking about them from every angle. TT has been running in NASA OH, CA for three years without problems and the drivers love it.
With that said NASA Mid Atlantic has always listened intently to it's members/customers. We are here to organize events that are fun and make people feel comfortable. If the TT is not something that the members want then we won't do it within the HPDE groups.
We will not run Timing during the HPDE 3 session at VIR, but would like input from you guys because we still think it is another way to have fun in the future.
It is my personal opinion that the TT competitiors would be able to co-exist without issue within HPDE 3 or HPDE 4 groups.
I understand and respect the opinions of those skeptical of the concept but I cannot tell you how many times very vocal people have said that NASA was being unsafe only to be proven wrong when a concept was put into practice.
The term "blood bath" was used in this very forum four years ago when we proposed to put "kids" on the track at speed during a Hyper Drive mini HPDE session occurring at Hyper Fest. We have put over 700 people throught HYper Drive sessions and have had no injuries and only three incidents. None of which was metal to metal. This is right in line with regular stats from the HPDE 1 groups.
NASA is unique in that we have both school and racing on the same weekend. 5 years ago this was a radical concept and one that the experts predicted would create carnage because they felt that HPDE students would be in a racing frame of mind because there was racing at the track that weekend. I never did quite see the logic in that one but the "experts" were proven wrong and now we are praised for having such an innovative format.
NASA was the first to allow passing anywhere on the track with a point bye. This too was a radical concept 5 years ago and the "experts" predicted metal to metal carnage as far as the eye could see. In 5 seasons we have had two metal to metal incidents in our HPDEs (actually one was a rubber to rubber with no damage and the other created a very very minor ding in a rear quarter panel) and both of those were in the Instructor groups perpetrated by guest instructors from other groups under a provisional status.
There is a reason NASA has the excellent safety record that it does. Our expectations are high of our instructors, students and racers and the expectations are well communicated and understood. We enforce rules when those expectations are not met, and we respect our customers and expect them to respect those around them at an event.
Due to the fact that we had only two TT people want to participate, I assume that the demand isn't really out there for it but I would offer up one observation.
Competition, itself, is not a catalyst for unsafe driving practices. On the contrary, competition helps to better refine skill levels if there is solid foundation in the first place.
I am looking forward to seeing everyone at the track in Feb. It looks to be a REALLY good and fun season.
As always NASA wants to hear opinions, suggestions and ideas, provided they are put forth in a way that is positive, productive and not injurious. We have a wonderfully talented, reasonable and creative group of people that we are honored to have as members. NASA recognizes this and has put into practice many suggestions we have gotten.
If you have a direct question please email us for an assured response. My daily schedule doesn't always permit forum surfing so a post may not be responded to quickly or at all. Best to email us or call us.
My best to you all.
Thanks and Peace,
Chris Cobetto
Director NASA-MA
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From: North VA
Re: (NASACHRIS)
Thanks for promptly responding to our concerns. In the future please be sure to state upon registration if the TT will be taking place in a HPDE run group for those who feel it may make a difference. I understand what you are saying about TT participants keeping it cool and not getting crazy, I’ve considered entering myself. And although I feel many participants can keep a level head, I think that once you introduce the clock and the competition aspect the mentality is different than with the average HPDE student.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by NASACHRIS »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">NASA was the first to allow passing anywhere on the track with a point bye.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I think this rule is great and was very happy to see it implemented. Keep up the good work.
I’m still interested in hearing from participants in other regions who have experience in this matter. I plan to run outside the Mid-Atlantic region and would like to know how things have worked out, specifically in the NASA-OH/IN region.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by NASACHRIS »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">NASA was the first to allow passing anywhere on the track with a point bye.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I think this rule is great and was very happy to see it implemented. Keep up the good work.
I’m still interested in hearing from participants in other regions who have experience in this matter. I plan to run outside the Mid-Atlantic region and would like to know how things have worked out, specifically in the NASA-OH/IN region.
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From: Pleasanton, Ca
Re: (SlopeSurfer)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SlopeSurfer »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think that once you introduce the clock and the competition aspect the mentality is different than with the average HPDE student.
I’m still interested in hearing from participants in other regions who have experience in this matter. I plan to run outside the Mid-Atlantic region and would like to know how things have worked out, specifically in the NASA-OH/IN region.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I ran TT all last year (until I got my Comp lic.). Here in Nor Cal TT runs in HPDE 4 (open passing). We ran without any incidents withing the TT group.
I no So cal runs very similar, I have not heard of any problems down there and they have an awesome TT director.
I don't think TT will/does cause any problemas on the track(no more than the regular HPDE 4 drivers have). I actually became a better driver because if it. I made sure all my passes were courteous and safe. That made me have to learn how to set-up a pass (to pass those damn high HP cars).
I’m still interested in hearing from participants in other regions who have experience in this matter. I plan to run outside the Mid-Atlantic region and would like to know how things have worked out, specifically in the NASA-OH/IN region.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I ran TT all last year (until I got my Comp lic.). Here in Nor Cal TT runs in HPDE 4 (open passing). We ran without any incidents withing the TT group.
I no So cal runs very similar, I have not heard of any problems down there and they have an awesome TT director.
I don't think TT will/does cause any problemas on the track(no more than the regular HPDE 4 drivers have). I actually became a better driver because if it. I made sure all my passes were courteous and safe. That made me have to learn how to set-up a pass (to pass those damn high HP cars).
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From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Re: (Track rat)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Track rat »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I applaud 'pass anywhere with a point by' for the experienced groups.
If you are not comfortable being overtaken in the roller coaster...simple, don't give a point by there!</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yup.
If you are not comfortable being overtaken in the roller coaster...simple, don't give a point by there!</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yup.
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From: Siege Perilous
Re: (BrianZ)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BrianZ »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
(open passing).
</TD></TR></TABLE>
When you say open passing, do you mean anywhere with a point (as in Virginia) or do you mean CCR passing rules for racing?
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I don't think TT will/does cause any problemas on the track(no more than the regular HPDE 4 drivers have). </TD></TR></TABLE>
At this particular moment, I would not be able to be on the track with a car/driver that was being timed, so, effectively, I would be culled from NASA unless I wanted to drop back to Group 2.
I am just one driver, of course.
(open passing).
</TD></TR></TABLE>
When you say open passing, do you mean anywhere with a point (as in Virginia) or do you mean CCR passing rules for racing?
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I don't think TT will/does cause any problemas on the track(no more than the regular HPDE 4 drivers have). </TD></TR></TABLE>
At this particular moment, I would not be able to be on the track with a car/driver that was being timed, so, effectively, I would be culled from NASA unless I wanted to drop back to Group 2.
I am just one driver, of course.
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From: Pleasanton, Ca
Re: (George Knighton)
Open passing = pass anyware on the track. You must make a clean safe pass tho. Dive bombing into the braking zones is not what I would call a safe pass.. but you do not NEED a point by, but most will give it to you.
Why would you not be able to be on the track at the same time as someone beeing timed?
Why would you not be able to be on the track at the same time as someone beeing timed?
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From: cali
Re: (George Knighton)
IIRC its ok to run a Hot laps timer or the likes, in groups 3 and 4 I think it says something like that in the CCR, you might want to check it out.
and if you not ready to be on the tack at the same time as some one being timed then maybe group2 would be a good place?
and if you not ready to be on the tack at the same time as some one being timed then maybe group2 would be a good place?
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From: Canton, OH, USA
Re: (slammed_93_hatch)
I have been an instructor with NASA OH/IN since 2003. We wun the TT program in HPDE 4 at all of the events. I don't know of any real problems that anyone has had with the TT drivers being out with the rest of us. The only issue that I recall had to do with a pass being made as the checker came out. Not really an issue, but not the "norm" for a DE group.
So, as an OH/IN account....the run groups have not changed at all since the days before TT. Everyone drives in the same manner, and is generally very courteous about passing, waiting for signals, and giving signals. I actually feel much safer in the NASA TT sessions than in many PCA instructor sessions. Everyone seems to know how to act on the track with NASA. It could be that the TT guys, instructors, and other HPDE4s are lumped together, meaning if a TT or HPDE4 guy does something stupid an instructor will most likely see it and have a chat with them after the session. Just an idea...but you can learn a lot by timing yourself, not to mention seeign progress at the end of each session.
Alex
PS: am i the only one NOT watching the superBLOW, er superbowl?
So, as an OH/IN account....the run groups have not changed at all since the days before TT. Everyone drives in the same manner, and is generally very courteous about passing, waiting for signals, and giving signals. I actually feel much safer in the NASA TT sessions than in many PCA instructor sessions. Everyone seems to know how to act on the track with NASA. It could be that the TT guys, instructors, and other HPDE4s are lumped together, meaning if a TT or HPDE4 guy does something stupid an instructor will most likely see it and have a chat with them after the session. Just an idea...but you can learn a lot by timing yourself, not to mention seeign progress at the end of each session.
Alex
PS: am i the only one NOT watching the superBLOW, er superbowl?
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From: Siege Perilous
Re: (MMsportsRexSi)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MMsportsRexSi »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm sure grandpa doesnt wana get his R rolled by a CRX in group two ;-) he'll stay up in 3 and play with the big boys! </TD></TR></TABLE>
I can't, if there are TT people in the group.
I'm not sure there's enough time in a NASA day for all this. You'll end up with a separate TT group that has to get its 20 min sessions in along with the sprint races and Groups 1- 4, and maybe they'll need more than one Group 2 in any given weekend if there are more Group 3 drivers who don't want to be with people timing themselves
NASA has done too good a job over the years preaching to the schools about the evils of competing and timing in the school groups, and our personal liability companies and people to whom we're responsible have bought into it. It's probably the only reason some of us are able to drive.
It'll be a financial decision for them. They'll only lose, what, maybe five or six Group3 or Group 4 drivers, total, and if they're gaining more than that in TT drivers, it only makes sense.
I can't, if there are TT people in the group.I'm not sure there's enough time in a NASA day for all this. You'll end up with a separate TT group that has to get its 20 min sessions in along with the sprint races and Groups 1- 4, and maybe they'll need more than one Group 2 in any given weekend if there are more Group 3 drivers who don't want to be with people timing themselves
NASA has done too good a job over the years preaching to the schools about the evils of competing and timing in the school groups, and our personal liability companies and people to whom we're responsible have bought into it. It's probably the only reason some of us are able to drive.
It'll be a financial decision for them. They'll only lose, what, maybe five or six Group3 or Group 4 drivers, total, and if they're gaining more than that in TT drivers, it only makes sense.
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From: RIP Craig Jones
Re: (George Knighton)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by George Knighton »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I would not be able to be on the track with a car/driver that was being timed</TD></TR></TABLE>
Why?
Why?
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From: Siege Perilous
Re: (.RJ)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Why?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Because I am responsible to others.
If it makes financial sense to NASA, then they just have to do it.
Because I am responsible to others.
If it makes financial sense to NASA, then they just have to do it.
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From: RIP Craig Jones
Re: (George Knighton)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by George Knighton »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Because I am responsible to others</TD></TR></TABLE>
But you yourself are not being timed.
I dont get it.
But you yourself are not being timed.
I dont get it.
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From: cAshburn
Re: (.RJ)
I'm guessing insurance is such that timing can not happen while he is on track. If there wasn't the ability to categorically prove that timing wasn't taking place, everyone could say they weren't being timed even if they were.
There's also the idea that even though he may not be times, others are and may act accordingly therefore raising the level of (financial) risk.
There's also the idea that even though he may not be times, others are and may act accordingly therefore raising the level of (financial) risk.
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From: Siege Perilous
Re: (.RJ)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I dont get it.</TD></TR></TABLE>
LOL.... I am responsible to others meaning I am responsible and have a reporting relationship with people who can basically tell me what to do with some aspects of life.
I, we and they all bought into the line we were being fed about the evils of timing a driving event, and it was a part of the decision to take part in it in the first place.
There's no recrimination here. It's a financial decision for NASA to get more people involved while also holding onto some of the older people, and I understand it completely. If they gain 20 people while only losing a few, it makes sense.
I dont get it.</TD></TR></TABLE>
LOL.... I am responsible to others meaning I am responsible and have a reporting relationship with people who can basically tell me what to do with some aspects of life.
I, we and they all bought into the line we were being fed about the evils of timing a driving event, and it was a part of the decision to take part in it in the first place.
There's no recrimination here. It's a financial decision for NASA to get more people involved while also holding onto some of the older people, and I understand it completely. If they gain 20 people while only losing a few, it makes sense.
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From: Morgantown, wv, usa
Re: (Apocalypse)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I would not be able to be on the track with a car/driver that was being timed</TD></TR></TABLE>
If you run in HPDE-3 with Va I'm betting you have already been out on track with people timing themselfs.
The people running in TT do not go crazy just because they are being timed. I have not noteced any differance in driving when i'm in a group that has TT drivers Vs a normal advanced group over the past several years. In fact the TT drivers want a clean lap or 2 and passing = slow lap, so as soon as a TT driver comes up on someone that lap is shot and they just relax wait for the point to go by like any other person out there would do. TT drivers do NOT push hard for a fast lap with other cars are around them, their fast lap is going to be their clean laps and they all know this.
If you run in HPDE-3 with Va I'm betting you have already been out on track with people timing themselfs.
The people running in TT do not go crazy just because they are being timed. I have not noteced any differance in driving when i'm in a group that has TT drivers Vs a normal advanced group over the past several years. In fact the TT drivers want a clean lap or 2 and passing = slow lap, so as soon as a TT driver comes up on someone that lap is shot and they just relax wait for the point to go by like any other person out there would do. TT drivers do NOT push hard for a fast lap with other cars are around them, their fast lap is going to be their clean laps and they all know this.