I am going to be starting a little hpde/ open road track driving.i sold my lame konig wheels with falken tires to buy a new set for the track (pocono, beaverrun) this summer. i bought a set of ats comp-lite wheels 15X7, and i wanted to know any bodys reccomendation on tires for the track. these tires will NEVER be used on the street, only track. azenias i think after getting heated up will loose too much traction, What about victoracers or hoosier r3s04?... WHAT do you guys use...any imput appreciated...thanks

 

azenis only overheat if you overdrive them.

they're a great track tire, cheap, durable, sticky, good in the rain if they have tread and have pretty good progressive loss of grip.

 

i agree they are cheap, a buddy of mine has azenis on his teg, after a while(couple of auto-x's) they seem to loose a little bit of bite. i dunno...who sells azenis now...edgeracing.com used to have them for like 60 each..dont know of anywhere else..i dont think tire rack or discount tire has them...i jsut dont want to be on a lap later in the day and have to sacrifice a little b/c the tires i bought decided to crap out on me from being over heated..any experience with the hoosiers?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GS8HFL21 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">who sells azenis now...edgeracing.com used to have them for like 60 each..dont know of anywhere else..i dont think tire rack or discount tire has them...</TD></TR></TABLE>

vulcantire.com, discount tire are both pretty reliable

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i jsut dont want to be on a lap later in the day and have to sacrifice a little b/c the tires i bought decided to crap out on me from being over heated..any experience with the hoosiers? </TD></TR></TABLE>

They only overheat when you overdrive them!

Hoosiers make crappy DE tires, they're expensive and dont last very long at all. If you're just starting out you dont want an 'r-compound' (hoosier, kumho, toyo RA1, etc) tire anyways they are not very forgiving at all.

 

Tires only overheat if you overheat them. If you're over heating, lower your pressure. Take your tire pressures and/or temps when you come off the track. Every tire has an optimal range of temp and pressure. Throughout the day the track heats up and you have to adjust your pressures.

There's nothing wrong w/ the Azenis. A lot of people use them. I ran the Bridgestone S03s on my Z and they were very good, but expensive as hell. Michelin Pilot Sports are another good choice. R compounds are very fun, but very expensive and don't last for ****. Expect to go through at least $100 per weekend in tires to run RA-1s (this is on a very light, low horsepower car). More for Hoosiers and probably around the same for Victoracers. R compounds don't reach end of traction as gradually or with as much notice as street tires do. That is why people will tell you that they're not good to start out on.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FlyZlow &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Expect to go through at least $100 per weekend in tires to run RA-1s (this is on a very light, low horsepower car).</TD></TR></TABLE>
depends on track conditions too of course.
Scott, i just did Buttonwillow last weekend and at the end of the day, i still had the dam paint visible on a set of brand new RA-1s. granted it was a DE event, but you can see where discrepancies might occur.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">azenis only overheat if you overdrive them.

they're a great track tire, cheap, durable, sticky, good in the rain if they have tread and have pretty good progressive loss of grip.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Azenis don't overheat if you're just slow Seriously you don't have to be overdriving them to overheat them.

As the other stuff rj said i'd agree though. Even once overheated they're still better than just about any other street tire in their prime temperature.

If you're around road racing a lot visit the tire companies during the day. Thats how I get most of the tires to use for track days. Have one set of RA1's I'm going to finish up at VIR next month and another set of victoracers at almost full tread to use up the rest of the year. All for free.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ryan12321 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Azenis don't overheat if you're just slow Seriously you don't have to be overdriving them to overheat them. </TD></TR></TABLE>

My 2 cents is that the vast majority of the people talking about greasy Azenis are either repeating hearsay or were overdriving the car, over turning the wheel, or whatever... Many times they won't concede the fact simply because they don't have enough time behind the wheel to recognize their mistakes.

Yes, we all know what they feel like when this happens, but the simple fact of the matter is that even with this, they're (arguably?) still the best street tire for the job. People are reading these statements and concluding that the Azenis has some fatal flaw that's going to send them into the wall at the end of a session. It's simply not the case.

What's even scarier is people like the original poster who conclude that because of these rumors they need to go start driving on Hoosiers. Now THAT is scary.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JeffS &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">My 2 cents is that the vast majority of the people talking about greasy Azenis are either repeating hearsay or were overdriving the car, over turning the wheel, or whatever... Many times they won't concede the fact simply because they don't have enough time behind the wheel to recognize their mistakes.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I can't disagree with you more. Ask any ST driver who does development testing on tires and you'll find the same result. You can question driver ability all you want, but if the sources are good then you might have good findings.

I've found the same overheating using azenis on track as auto-x. Its not something people are just making up.

 

The only time I had a problem with Azenis last year was when I overdrove the **** out of them (lots of sliding around) on an abrasive surface (at CMP) chasing a well driven M3 LTW on victoracers for a whole session. It was a ffing blast, but I blistered and chunked all 4 tires. I drove on them for another 4 or 5 weekends after that w/o any problems.

 

Any street tire, even an Azenis, can get hot and slick on a racetrack. It may be a performance street tire, but its still a street tire, and isn't really up to being wailed on for 10 laps straight at Road Atlanta. I managed to get the FRONT tires greasy on a TAIL happy Neon at Road Atlanta last summer. Azenis, relatively new.
It was an odd handling situation. The car would push on turn in, and then want to swap ends somewhere around the apex.
I backed off for a lap and suddenly the fronts had grip again.

The Azenis is still the best street tire for the track IMO. But it is a street tire and when driven aggressively (not neccessarily badly) it will go away pretty fast.
I would suggest that IF you are experienced and driving well, but aggressively, and are burning up your Azenis, its time to move to Toyos.
Of course, you probably need someone elses opinion (not your own) regarding how well you are driving. You can also fade Azenis by driving badly. And if you're driving badly, R compounds aren't going to fix the problem.

 

Why everyone no Kumho MX? Sidewall ain't as stiff, but the compound deals with heat a lot better than the Azenis, max grip is pretty comparable...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ryan12321 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Azenis don't overheat if you're just slow Seriously you don't have to be overdriving them to overheat them. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Agree.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ryan12321 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
As the other stuff rj said I'd agree though. Even once overheated they're still better than just about any other street tire in their prime temperature. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Disagree, MXs really deal with the heat very very well. I have had an instructor drive my car and was shocked to see that I had MXs on the car, cause he was pushing the car hard at my request.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by WRXRacer111 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Why everyone no Kumho MX? Sidewall ain't as stiff, but the compound deals with heat a lot better than the Azenis, max grip is pretty comparable... </TD></TR></TABLE>
I can't recall 100% about the max traction of the azenis way back when, But I know the MXs dish out some really solid grip at high heats.

 

Am I getting this right :

Prob.-&gt; they overheat, sol.-&gt;lower pressure ?

thanks,

Pat

 

Adding air *might* help manage the heat a little better... but you're still not going to get around the fact that the Azenis compound is "done" at 130 degrees. I recently switched from MXs to Azenis and found the Azenis harder to drive fast at the end of an autox run compared to the MXs, much easier to overdrive them when hot.

Myself and a co-driver had my old MXs up to 160+ and didn't notice them falling off at an autox, haven't had any issues with them going off until the last few laps in a 25 minute roadcourse session at which point I realized I was overdriving a bit anyways which was cooking the tires. I figure if my 3000lb car couldn't really kill 245 MXs, the lighter cars should have even less of a problem.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JeffS &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
What's even scarier is people like the original poster who conclude that because of these rumors they need to go start driving on Hoosiers. Now THAT is scary. </TD></TR></TABLE>

woa man...i never said that i NEED to start driving on hoosiers...i was asking a question to get an opioniated answer

since the azenis are so dam cheap i think that ill try them and if i dotn like them...then move onto something else...thanks

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> The Azenis is still the best street tire for the track IMO. But it is a street tire and when driven aggressively (not neccessarily badly) it will go away pretty fast.</TD></TR></TABLE>

If this is the case, in your opinion, which tire would you suggest?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> I would suggest that IF you are experienced and driving well, but aggressively, and are burning up your Azenis, its time to move to Toyos.
Of course, you probably need someone elses opinion (not your own) regarding how well you are driving. You can also fade Azenis by driving badly. And if you're driving badly, R compounds aren't going to fix the problem. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I believe that i am a decent driver..however i have never had any track experience other then englishtowns auto x course (but no road racing). i want to learn how to drive better...i dont feel safe pushing my car (or any car) on the street, risking my life or somebody elses.

These tires are going to be used for probabaly 1 season, i know the azenis wear better then say an r-compound but .. i dont need these for the street at all...if another tire is "track only" but safer ..id rather those

 

If these tires are only going to be used for the track I don't see a problem with going with the Toyo RA1. Its a very forgiving tire that starts making noise when you start screwing up.
The Hoosiers are not for beginners at all. They give no warning and have very high limits. Once you go over their limits, you're over them and in trouble. You're off in the woods thinking "everything was just fine a second ago."

Many here think that you MUST start out on street tires at the track. I think its a great idea, but not a MUST. If you have the money and the extra wheels and want real race tires... Go ahead and get some Toyos. They'll let you know you're overdriving them just like an Azenis or any other street tire.

 

Yeah, I totally disagree that the RA-1 is unforgiving. It reminds me of a street tire with BIG grip more than a race tire. Maybe not ideal for a racecar, but definitely a great tire for almost every situation.

Live axle + RA1's + lots of slip angle = fun.

Live axle + Hoosiers + lots of slip angle = crunch.

 

great...thanks for your feed back guys..

 

So this is going to be your first HPDE?

 

If it's your first, then just use what ever tire rims you have on your car (as long as it's safe) , the reason I say this... Your used to the tires now and will understand what they are doing on the track.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by R you serious &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">depends on track conditions too of course.
Scott, i just did Buttonwillow last weekend and at the end of the day, i still had the dam paint visible on a set of brand new RA-1s. granted it was a DE event, but you can see where discrepancies might occur. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Heh. Yeah, my number is probably skewed because I have them shaved to 4/32 right off the bat. Forgot about that. I didn't even understand your post at first. I was like "what paint?".

On that note, I'd bet that full-tread RA-1s wouldn't be too bad for a beginner (like Catch22 suggested). They probably act more like a street tire at full depth. I've been running on shaved RA-1's since my 2nd track weekend (first in the CRX, I did a weekend in the Z on the S03's) and I don't think it was too bad to learn on them. I did have to learn the hard way about respecting them when cold though (backwards x 2). One thing to note about the Toyos vs the street tires is that they seem to have a way smaller happy temp range. One to two cold PSI up or down can greatly affect grip when hot whereas it seemed with the street tires that the effect was more gradual.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GS8HFL21 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I believe that i am a decent driver</TD></TR></TABLE>

We all did

You'll learn though

 

Somewhat car and money dependent. We use Falken Azenis at both BeaveRun and at Pocono on the CRX with great results overall. You can opt for more expensive rubber like Yokohama A032R and similar from Toyo and Hoosier. However you are just starting out and a really good Z rated street tire will be just fine. Ther will be opinions on this too. I have used Dunlop Sport A2s and several others on track-the grip is less but you can drive the car in wet and dry both to/from the track and daily as well versus regular use of the Azenis (I simply don't recommend it for them). For more help with Pocono contact PDA or NASA about events there. PDA (Performance Drivers Assn at http://www.pdadrivingschool.com) is based in Clifton, NJ and is a great group for HPDE.
See you on track

 

Warning - Your results may vary

What Catch says about Toyos is supported by my experiences last year. Being a cheap-*** and knowing that my learning curve was going to be steep after a long layoff, I opted for fully treaded RA-1s.

Lesson 1: They work GREAT in the rain. Yeah, it was a school and all but I was second on the grid sheet in a soaking session, behind a Production class Integra and in front of 44 other cars. It was NOT the driver because when it dried out I was looking foward at that many back bumpers.

Lesson 2: You can hurt one if you don't treat it nice. I wasn't paying enough attention, ran too much negative camber, and my open diff gnawed the inside edge off of the INSIDE TIRE at Roebling Rd.



Lesson 3: (Picture above) If you are kind to them, they will survive a LONG time. The picture is of a tire that's done 9+ hours of track time (probably 12+ heat cycles?), in club licensing schools, regional races up to 45 minutes long, and a variety of track days. Remember that it started out with full tread. It also lasted for two more weekends before cord peeked through.

Lesson 4: If anything, they get FASTER as they get older.

I wouldn't hesitate to recommend Toyos for HPDE activities. Scott's right that they talk to you, and as long as you listen they will work and last just fine.

K