Guys, I am trying to determine if my valve seals are bad without pulling the head off the engine. The most noticeable symptoms are heavy black smoke out my exhaust upon hard acceleration, burnt oil smell from the engine (no oil leaking anywhere), and lousy idle (idle used to be 100% oem even with the JUN3's and the A/C turned on). My compression test shows 265psi clear across the board and my bottom end is 100%virgin from the factory. My head has a heavy p&p job with chamber re-shaping, valve-job, and light mill. I am running JUN3's with JUN springs and retainers. People tell me smoke is normal with a head job like the one I have but I don't think its normal when the smoke cloud grows as time passes by.

When I first noticed the smoke I installed a catch can and the problem was remedied almost completely but as time has passed, I've noticed that the smoke cloud just keeps growing even after the catch can ..

What can I check ?? The car runs very strong and is pulling 199.1whp at the dyno but the smoke cloud and oil smell is really starting to bug me ..

 

well, diagnosis of valve stem seals is pretty tough, its not that bad taking them out. but its not easy. theres no test that i know that will tell you for sure its your valve stem seals that is the problem, but... it sounds like it may not be valve stem seals. A common symptom of poor valve stem seals is blue smoke at idle.

Compression tests are extremely overrated. period.

Leakdown tests are the true way to tell worn internal engine parts. Ask anyone who really deals with serious engine work, they will tell you the same thing. With leakdown you can tell if your rings are worn, valves are bent, headgasket shot... etc.

good luck

-s

 

if your burning oil, (bad) theres only 2 ways. worn rings, or valve seals. i would do a leak down test, and if it holds pretty good then that would mean your rings are good. so the only othere way you could burn oil is through the seals.
from what you described i would probably suspect the seals.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by esponet &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">if your burning oil, (bad) theres only 2 ways. worn rings, or valve seals. i would do a leak down test, and if it holds pretty good then that would mean your rings are good. so the only othere way you could burn oil is through the seals.
from what you described i would probably suspect the seals.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Dont forget valve guides as well. if they have the hour glass shape (on the inside) then the condition of the valve seal wont really matter.

-s

 

Thanks for the info .. I am trying to locate a shop to do a leak down in the next couple of days .. I know the shop that did the head job modified the guides but I'm not sure how drastic the cut was .. However, if the smoke is due to the modded guides, then why does it seem to get worse as time passes ?? In other words, if my smoking problem is due to the modified parts in the head, I would expect to see the same amount of smoke all the time from the day it was put in... Does this make sense to you guys ?? I have no problem returning the giudes to stock if that's where the problem is .. I really want to loose the friggin'g smoke cloud ..

 

It could also be yout PCV valve. You will burn oil if that is clogged. To test it all you have to do is pull it out and shake it. If you can hear the little check valve rattling around it is good. If it is clogged there will be no sound. It is also cheap, like $7 at Honda. Good Luck

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sander &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">well, diagnosis of valve stem seals is pretty tough, its not that bad taking them out. but its not easy. theres no test that i know that will tell you for sure its your valve stem seals that is the problem, but... it sounds like it may not be valve stem seals. A common symptom of poor valve stem seals is blue smoke at idle.

Compression tests are extremely overrated. period.

Leakdown tests are the true way to tell worn internal engine parts. Ask anyone who really deals with serious engine work, they will tell you the same thing. With leakdown you can tell if your rings are worn, valves are bent, headgasket shot... etc.

good luck

-s</TD></TR></TABLE>

thank god someone finally said it. You know your ****

With the throttle completely closed at high rpm while the car is in gear, high vacuum is placed on the valve seals. The idea is to have some one follow you on the highway and downshift to 2nd to get close to tach and let the car deccelerate while in gear. If the person following you sees smoke, it's a good indication that your seals are bad.

After this, you can floor the gas pedal and see if less smoke comes out to confirm.

I think it's a good idea to replace valve seals every time they're removed because chances are, they are damaged when the tool is used to remove them.

 

Is the motor JDM? If so, seals can degrade if the motor has sat unused for a long time. You might just want to go ahead and replace them. This will tell you for sure.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Stewie &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

thank god someone finally said it. You know your ****

With the throttle completely closed at high rpm while the car is in gear, high vacuum is placed on the valve seals. The idea is to have some one follow you on the highway and downshift to 2nd to get close to tach and let the car deccelerate while in gear. If the person following you sees smoke, it's a good indication that your seals are bad. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Thanks, Thats also a test that makes good sense, ive never heard of that before, but good test none the less.

Interms of modification done to the guides, it was more than likely not done to the internal dia. of the guide, it was probably cutting the guide down by the port so they would not impede flow. Unless they were trying to gain more clearance on the internal dia of the valve guide to prevent a stuck valve. (which is unlikely, not many people do that on later model cars, its more of an old american iron thing).

Do leakdown, and then try the test mentioned above and come back with results.

-s

 

on the first start of the day or in a while you get a puff of blue smoke then it is your valve guides if under hard acceleration my guess is that it is your rings. i would reccomend a compression test

 

I think my seals are going out too. It doesn't smoke normally at idle or first start up, but when I pound it, sometimes a small cloud comes out when I'm at idle at a street light. But I don't smell burning oil. Sometimes there's no cloud after WOT. Then again I am running rich. My friends say the cloud is blackish, which means it's rich. I look in the my mirrors and it isn't really black, nor really blue. However, I checked my oil last week, had to add a little bit. Then I check today and it was in the same spot before I added oil the previous week. Which is about a few millimeters above low.

 

the catalytic onverter will get rid of the smell and most of the smoke

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by b16h22a &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the catalytic onverter will get rid of the smell and most of the smoke</TD></TR></TABLE>

LOL, maybe that's the reason why I see smoke. Straightpipe for me.

 

Well, I think my problem is past the cat-converter at this point ..

I;ll be pulling the IM this weekend to check the chambers ..

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by b16h22a &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the catalytic onverter will get rid of the smell and most of the smoke</TD></TR></TABLE>

HA!

 

SMOKIN!

White smoke out of tailpipe after warm-up: Internal coolant leak.

Black smoke out of tailpipe after warm-up: Too much gas/rich/injector problem

Blue smoke out of tailpipe under acceleration: Bad rings

Blue smoke out of tailpipe under deceleration: Bad valve seals/guides

All three out of tailpipe under all conditiond: Another beat ITR

John

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BlueIntegraBoy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think my seals are going out too. It doesn't smoke normally at idle or first start up, but when I pound it, sometimes a small cloud comes out when I'm at idle at a street light. But I don't smell burning oil. Sometimes there's no cloud after WOT. Then again I am running rich. My friends say the cloud is blackish, which means it's rich. I look in the my mirrors and it isn't really black, nor really blue. However, I checked my oil last week, had to add a little bit. Then I check today and it was in the same spot before I added oil the previous week. Which is about a few millimeters above low.</TD></TR></TABLE>

What makes you think the valve seals are going? If it doesn't smoke at first start up, probably not valve seals. Smoke at WOT is most likely because you're rich.

How many miles are you going between burning a quart of oil?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Chris F &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

What makes you think the valve seals are going? If it doesn't smoke at first start up, probably not valve seals. Smoke at WOT is most likely because you're rich.

How many miles are you going between burning a quart of oil?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm not too sure. Probably a lot of miles. I'm going to check the oil in a bit after the motor cools.

 

Also, try doing this whilst coasting down a very steep hill- to allow "redline rpms'-whilst with throttle full closed to allow the testing of the worn valve stem seals test- you can see the white smoke on my k24 accord after stopping at the bottom of the hill.
Also what I've noticed is that the vehicle wants to stall at idle, and when initially trying to accelerate, the engine tries to stall and sputtering happens- but after about 5 seconds of gentle coaxing of the engine, eventually normal engine operation ensues.
Can anyone explain, whats going on here???