I am running on obd2 98 h22a4 engine with obd1 p13 ecu. Now, i can't adjust the distributor to advance timing. Right now I am running 10 on timing and is kinda low compare to stock 15?

So, i am thinking about advance +2 on intake cam gears so it would compensate to stock timing. Do you think it would work? please help me out. thanks

also, right now I am running kinda lag a little bit due to low timing.

 

someone gotta help me out.

 

So the maximum base timing you can run is 10 degrees BTDC? Did you try to turn the distributor??

Advancing the intake cam timing is not relevant to ignition timing, so you can't "compensate" retarded ignition timing by advancing the cam timing.

 

what injectors are you running

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TurboSmart &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So the maximum base timing you can run is 10 degrees BTDC? Did you try to turn the distributor??

Advancing the intake cam timing is not relevant to ignition timing, so you can't "compensate" retarded ignition timing by advancing the cam timing.</TD></TR></TABLE>

with odb2, you can't adjust the distributor.
one mark on the cam gear is equal to 2 degree timing.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">what injectors are you running.</TD></TR></TABLE>

stock, why?

 

ignition timign is read of fthe crank for hte h22a4 with stock ecu.

 

From my understanding you cannot adjust the timing manually on OBD2a/b Prelude ECU's because this is a ECU controlled function, and no matter how far you physically turn the dist on an OBD 2 H22 the computer does not respond due to the preset ignition timing value. However since you are running a P13 ECU computer controlled timing is non-existant, have you tried physically turning the dist? Also The injectors are different between the the two ecu's: OBD1=peak and hold 310cc, OBD2=saturated 290cc. When you use the P13 ECU you have to use those injectors for correct power output.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Gerhard_001 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">From my understanding you cannot adjust the timing manually on OBD2a/b Prelude ECU's because this is a ECU controlled function, and no matter how far you physically turn the dist on an OBD 2 H22 the computer does not respond due to the preset ignition timing value. However since you are running a P13 ECU computer controlled timing is non-existant, have you tried physically turning the dist? Also The injectors are different between the the two ecu's: OBD1=peak and hold 310cc, OBD2=saturated 290cc. When you use the P13 ECU you have to use those injectors for correct power output.</TD></TR></TABLE>

great infor, now, if i use odb1 injectors, do they fit on odb2 plugs? i currently using odb2 engine harness.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Gerhard_001 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">From my understanding you cannot adjust the timing manually on OBD2a/b Prelude ECU's because this is a ECU controlled function, and no matter how far you physically turn the dist on an OBD 2 H22 the computer does not respond due to the preset ignition timing value. However since you are running a P13 ECU computer controlled timing is non-existant, have you tried physically turning the dist? Also The injectors are different between the the two ecu's: OBD1=peak and hold 310cc, OBD2=saturated 290cc. When you use the P13 ECU you have to use those injectors for correct power output.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Is this true! I want to know because I have been using my OBD1 p13 ECU on my JDM OBD2 motor (and yes I have the conversion harness). So I am really suppose to be using the OBD1 injectors on my OBD2 motor because I am using the OBD1 ECU.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 98HB &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Is this true! I want to know because I have been using my OBD1 p13 ECU on my JDM OBD2 motor (and yes I have the conversion harness). So I am really suppose to be using the OBD1 injectors on my OBD2 motor because I am using the OBD1 ECU.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I don't think it really matters. There are tons of people on this board includign myself that run saturated injectors with a p13. It runs fine.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by lakerschamp2000 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

stock, why?</TD></TR></TABLE>

you're running H22A4 injectors on a P13 ecu?? you're running very lean, and your timing is probably at 10 because of the knock sensor.

P13 expects 345cc injectors. Get some A1 injectors and a resistor box.

Because your current setup is the equivalent of getting a V-AFC and putting -16% everywhere on the rpm range.

 

i thoguth the h22a4 ran higher fuel pressure to come very close to teh exact same flow of teh 345cc injectors at their lower pressure?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by v4lu3s &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i thoguth the h22a4 ran higher fuel pressure to come very close to teh exact same flow of teh 345cc injectors at their lower pressure?</TD></TR></TABLE>

That's what I thought. Mine was running rich, not very very lean.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by satan_srv &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

you're running H22A4 injectors on a P13 ecu?? you're running very lean, and your timing is probably at 10 because of the knock sensor.

P13 expects 345cc injectors. Get some A1 injectors and a resistor box.

Because your current setup is the equivalent of getting a V-AFC and putting -16% everywhere on the rpm range.</TD></TR></TABLE>

listen to the man guys.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by v4lu3s &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i thoguth the h22a4 ran higher fuel pressure to come very close to teh exact same flow of teh 345cc injectors at their lower pressure?</TD></TR></TABLE>

measure the fuel pressures and let me know...otherwise I'll stick with what I know so far. Actually let's check...

4th gen VTEC part number 16740-PT2-J00
5th gen part number 16740-P5L-J01

okay so they're different...BUT

Let's assume the 2 injector sizes ar 290cc and 345cc @ 43 psi

for a 290cc injector to flow at the capacity of a 345cc injector..it would take

(345/290)^2*43.5 = 61 psi

really think they're running at 61 psi??

 

or we can also assume that the BSFC is the same for an h22a1 as an h22a4 ( i dont see how that can change that much between the engines), and you ahve a 290cc injector and a 34cc injector. the only way for the 290cc injectored engine can make the same power as teh 345cc injectored engine is more fuel pressue to increase flow.

i have not measured, but i know the helm maual says 47- 54 psi, and i dont have the honda spec for the h22a1 on me though.


edit:
and actually i just did some research.
the h22a1 is rated at 33-40 psi from the factory.
so assuming that the flowrates are measured at 43.5 psi, the 290 cc injector going at 54 psi WILL flow damn near the same as a 345cc at 40 psi.

so by my calculations....using your posted equation.
345cc at 40 psi is trhe same as 290cc at 54 psi.


Modified by v4lu3s at 9:33 PM 1/13/2005

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by satan_srv &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

you're running H22A4 injectors on a P13 ecu?? you're running very lean, and your timing is probably at 10 because of the knock sensor.

P13 expects 345cc injectors. Get some A1 injectors and a resistor box.

Because your current setup is the equivalent of getting a V-AFC and putting -16% everywhere on the rpm range.</TD></TR></TABLE>

so your telling me by dumping in even more fuel it will help the situation? unless he swaps out his fpr to an h22a1 fpr as well, all you will accomplish is making the motor run even more rich than it is from the factory.

If you wanna get fancy with your calculations, let me add some info that might help clear things up. I have measured the pressure of an h22a1 fpr to be about 40-41psi. When I replaced it with an h22a4 fpr, on the same car, the pressure went up to 54-55psi. Going with the helm manual specifications, I will use 40 and 54psi respectively. Since injector sizes are not exactly well documented, I will round my RC flow test results down. The 4 obd1 injectors I had tested came out to between 342-344cc/min after cleaning. So I will round that to 340cc for my calculations. I have heard from a few people that the obd2 injectors tested out to 290ish, so i will go with that value.

(340cc/290cc)^2*40psi=54.9822psi

you really think 1psi is gonna make that big of a difference?

Its funny how you knock all "chipped" ecu's in all the other threads i see about ecus, because its like shootin darts, cuz the writer of the chip is blindly pluggin numbers in for your maps, yet you go around giving information based on your "knowledge" which seems to me is as equivalent as shootin darts most of the time


And to the original thread creator. I'd suggest looking into getting yourself an obd1 h22/23 distributor and wiring that up to the ecu. That will most likely solve your timing problems, given that there is nothing else wrong with your setup of course. Please dont go and start moving your cam timing around to try to fix the situation. Thats just gonna open up another can of worms.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Eddiebx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

so your telling me by dumping in even more fuel it will help the situation? unless he swaps out his fpr to an h22a1 fpr as well, all you will accomplish is making the motor run even more rich than it is from the factory.

If you wanna get fancy with your calculations, let me add some info that might help clear things up. I have measured the pressure of an h22a1 fpr to be about 40-41psi. When I replaced it with an h22a4 fpr, on the same car, the pressure went up to 54-55psi. Going with the helm manual specifications, I will use 40 and 54psi respectively. Since injector sizes are not exactly well documented, I will round my RC flow test results down. The 4 obd1 injectors I had tested came out to between 342-344cc/min after cleaning. So I will round that to 340cc for my calculations. I have heard from a few people that the obd2 injectors tested out to 290ish, so i will go with that value.

(340cc/290cc)^2*40psi=54.9822psi

you really think 1psi is gonna make that big of a difference?

Its funny how you knock all "chipped" ecu's in all the other threads i see about ecus, because its like shootin darts, cuz the writer of the chip is blindly pluggin numbers in for your maps, yet you go around giving information based on your "knowledge" which seems to me is as equivalent as shootin darts most of the time
</TD></TR></TABLE>

thanks for the scolding...RC rates injectors at 43 PSI, so my calcs are correct....and using your 340 and 290..I still get 59

annnnd...for the longest time people used to say the 4g injectors were 330cc...perhaps that is becuase they are 330 at 39-40psi...makes sense becuase then at 43psi like RC...you get 345cc

And yes...if he is running so lean that the knock sensor is pulling timing, then yes.

WORD.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by satan_srv &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

thanks for the scolding...RC rates injectors at 43 PSI, so my calcs are correct....and using your 340 and 290..I still get 59

annnnd...for the longest time people used to say the 4g injectors were 330cc...perhaps that is becuase they are 330 at 39-40psi...makes sense becuase then at 43psi like RC...you get 345cc

And yes...if he is running so lean that the knock sensor is pulling timing, then yes.

WORD.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Something I never thought about was diffrent fpr's. I have an obd2 motor that is switched over to obd1(ecu ,dizz,etc..) but I never thought about the fpr. Do you think I could be runnig rich with the obd2 fpr and obd1 injectors? As it stands my motor seems to run fine. I get roughly 280-300 miles per tank and the motor does'nt exhibt any of the telltale signs of running rich but the facts about the injector size and fpr's now have me wondering. what do you all think??

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by satan_srv &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">thanks for the scolding...RC rates injectors at 43 PSI, so my calcs are correct....and using your 340 and 290..I still get 59

annnnd...for the longest time people used to say the 4g injectors were 330cc...perhaps that is becuase they are 330 at 39-40psi...makes sense becuase then at 43psi like RC...you get 345cc

And yes...if he is running so lean that the knock sensor is pulling timing, then yes.

WORD.</TD></TR></TABLE>

RC and most places rate fuel flow at 43 psi.
but that does not mean they operate at that rate.
43psi and 345cc. at 40 psi they flow at LESS than 345cc.
and 290cc at 43psi....meaning at 54 psi they flow MORE than 290cc.

 

The OBD-II Spec on the H22A4 is 750RPMs with the jumper jumped @ 15deg +/- 2 degrees BTDC.

That's all I can tell you.

 

since my usdm h22a4 has 290cc injectors, can i run jdm itr ecu because jdm itr motor also run 290cc injectors.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by lakerschamp2000 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">since my usdm h22a4 has 290cc injectors, can i run jdm itr ecu because jdm itr motor also run 290cc injectors. </TD></TR></TABLE>

if it really does run 290cc injectors it is spraying enough fuel for a 1.8 liter engine which wont be enough fuel for a 2.2 liter engine.

 

Peak and hold injectors are fired at 4 to 6 Amps, through a ballast resistor, and then fold back to 1 - 2 Amps for the duration of the injection event. They are also known as "fold back"Injectors. Peak and hold injectors are faster responding than Saturated injectors by as much as 1 to 1.5 Ms. They are activated with more power at opening than the saturated types (4-6Amps vs. .75 -1 Amp.). Peak and hold injectors will maintain injection delivery, cycle to cycle,continuity more accurately than the saturated type. This is particularly true and even more important in high-pressure (75 - 100+ PSI) systems. The higher Hydrostatic loading at excitation requires more amperage to initially activate the injector solenoid and properly maintain complete opening. Peak and hold systems are more expensive to manufacture because they require one computer "injector driver" per injector in most applications. This is a design requirement in Sequential Fire Systems where each injector is fired at a very precise, pre determined, time in the 720 degree 4 stroke processes. P&H injectors are also wound withcopper wire instead of brass wire. Injectors should always be tested with a volt/ohm
meter before using to determine type. Be careful, Injector types should never be mixed. Sat.Injectors can be used in P&H systems, but not the other way around.
Saturated injectors are low resistance, peak and hold injectors are high resistance.
PRESSURE AND FLOW CHANGES Fuel pressure changes will alter flow rates as follows -
To find a new Flow Rate from a PSI change, Divide the new Pressure by the rate of the oldpressure. Find the square root of this number and multiply it by the old or rated flow rate.
Example: Injector rated at 290 cc/Min at 43 PSI(industry standard)actual flow is always different. If you raise the pressure to 59 PSI - Divide(59/ 43) = 1.3720--- The Sq.Root of 1.3720 = 1.1713 --- Multiply 290cc X 1.1713 and you get 339.67CC/Min. This will be THE new flow rate. The injector size will still be listed at 290cc/Min @ 43 PSI. Just my .03