hey guys, i wanted to run in honda challenge, but confused by the rulebook. Basicly i have a 1999 civic sedan, gutted, i haven't started the cage yet.

Other than that no engine, stock brakes, tein's, mugen bushings, megan racing lca's with a itr rear sway bar. Would running the d16y8 put me in h3? h4,.. it was a dx model, this will be my first time racing so.. where do i stand ?

 

You have to look at the trim level of car for class. For a 99 Civic 4dr you only have 2 classes to run in; H1 and H4.

In H4, everything which is not allowed to be changed per the rulebook needs to be from that trim level of car. For the 96-00 Civics i think it is pretty easy as all the trim levels are pretty much the same. Make sure you have the correct engine, brakes, etc.

You cannot use that tub in H3 as there was no 4dr Si offered.

Hope that helps.

 

hmm, soudns good to run in h4, so i basicly can do the y8 swap.. now about the motor.. i can do anything i want with that right..? turbo ?
ohh, and my minium weight would be 2305?

thanks

 

Ahhhh .. no!

read these 2 cover to cover before you do anything.

http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/ccr.pdf
http://www.nasaproracing.com/r...c.pdf

 

hehe i did'nt read down enough =\

 

hmm.. so basicly a .040 bore, intake manifold, stock d series throttlebody, bored out, matched, port match the intake/head to 1", any exhaust, any intake... only thing is thats what.. 140hp ?..

hmm hmm hmm....

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by menkio &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">hmm.. so basicly a .040 bore, intake manifold, stock d series throttlebody, bored out, matched, port match the intake/head to 1", any exhaust, any intake... only thing is thats what.. 140hp ?..

hmm hmm hmm....</TD></TR></TABLE>

Way more than enough speed to get into trouble.. H4 cars will most likely see 125 mph at most tracks..

 

you guys know where i can find example h4 cars, not finding much with ht/google

 

http://www.hondachallenge.com/profiles/index.html

Make sure to read the rules carefully. TB can't be bored out per the rules. Must use stock suspension components eg lower control arms. Use of camber adjusters is allowed. Also, when utilizing the chassis swap rule, make sure that all applicable components are switched out. eg If you were to use this rule for a ITR with the new chassis being from a GSR, both front & rear suspension would be switched to 5 lug not just the front.

What region will you be running in?

 

i'll be on the northeast, so i can't run the megan racing lca's.. have to get ex arms or something, so i can attach the endlinks. I'm gonna print out the rulebook and everything and re-read everything a couple times, take notes etc.. i'll get everything down before i start.

 

read it about 6 times, then read it again, you will find yourself finding new small things that you never noticed befor

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Honda318dx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Way more than enough speed to get into trouble.. H4 cars will most likely see 125 mph at most tracks..</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah H4 is great fun, just enough power that you have to think about it, but not enough to nullify technique. You really have to drive to make these go fast. Not enough HP to make up for mistakes.

 

any one of you guys know a source i can order sohc's from, i know steve at hmotorsonline has the d15b's, but i was looking for z6's/y8 longblock+tranny.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by menkio &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">any one of you guys know a source i can order sohc's from, i know steve at hmotorsonline has the d15b's, but i was looking for z6's/y8 longblock+tranny.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I don't know what a y8 is but the z6 isn't a motor that is legal for H4 (unless yet again I am missing something w/ all these letter combinations).

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by phat-S &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">but the z6 isn't a motor that is legal for H4 (unless yet again I am missing something w/ all these letter combinations).</TD></TR></TABLE>

The (D16)Z6 is the 92-95 Si/Ex motor - Legal for H4, provided everything else in the chassis is to Si/Ex spec Thats the way to go for H4 if you're going to use a cibbic

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Basicly i have a 1999 civic sedan, gutted, i haven't started the cage yet</TD></TR></TABLE>

But I give up on this letter number thing

 

You would need to run the D16Y8 block in that car. If you showed up with a D16Z6, that would make the car a H1.

The rules require it to come with a engine that came in that series/generation of model. I know that the block dimensions are the same but those are the rules. I recently had to pass on a swap sale myself.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by civicrr &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You would need to run the D16Y8 block in that car. If you showed up with a D16Z6, that would make the car a H1.

The rules require it to come with a engine that came in that series/generation of model. I know that the block dimensions are the same but those are the rules. I recently had to pass on a swap sale myself.</TD></TR></TABLE>

http://autos.msn.com/research/...sub=1 - the 127hp Z6 was offered in '99......

 

Yep, I give the **** up on the letter thing - and this time I mean it!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

http://autos.msn.com/research/...sub=1 - the 127hp Z6 was offered in '99...... </TD></TR></TABLE>

The Z6 engine code stopped being offered after the 1995 model year.

D16Z6 was the 125hp engine offered from 92-95. This engine was offered in the EX & Si models. You could run this engine in the coupe, sedan or 'hatch since it was offered in one model or another in all of those body styles.

D16Y8 was the 127hp engine offered for 96-99(?). It was offered in the EX models. You could run this engine in a coupe or sedan since those were the only models that came as an EX.

Different head, OBD II, cast al oil pan are some of the differences between the two.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by gotocrx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Yeah H4 is great fun, just enough power that you have to think about it, but not enough to nullify technique. You really have to drive to make these go fast. Not enough HP to make up for mistakes.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Chris,

I've seen this comment thrown around by people driving slower cars, mainly specmiata guys. The argument being is a momentum car, and you can't use HP to make up for your mistake.

This argument only work if you comparing a slower car to faster car. Example, H4 car to H1 car. But if you are comparing similarly class car, like H1 car and H1 car, this argument doesn't hold true. A mistake still a mistake, and no amount of HP will bail you out if everyone has the same! In fact the faster the class the more you have to be careful. As it is easier for everyone else to get around you if you loose your speed.

In the end driving a faster car is always harder than driving a slower car.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by civicrr &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

The Z6 engine code stopped being offered after the 1995 model year.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I ***-u-me-d that the engine was the same since the power output was the same....... on me. Thanks mike

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Andrie &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Chris,

I've seen this comment thrown around by people driving slower cars, mainly specmiata guys. The argument being is a momentum car, and you can't use HP to make up for your mistake.

This argument only work if you comparing a slower car to faster car. Example, H4 car to H1 car. But if you are comparing similarly class car, like H1 car and H1 car, this argument doesn't hold true. A mistake still a mistake, and no amount of HP will bail you out if everyone has the same! In fact the faster the class the more you have to be careful. As it is easier for everyone else to get around you if you loose your speed.

In the end driving a faster car is always harder than driving a slower car.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Andrie, I think there is a flaw in your premise (but I think we'd agree that momentum is momentum is momentum and its going to be an important quality for the driver of any class). Essentially, on a track where all turns can be taken flat out, you are correct and there is no playing field differences based on the type of power you make, however, if there are turns that higher hp cars cannot go through flat out (but can use throttle to make up for deficits leading into it) there is a much smaller difference between the penalties you pay in the higher hp car vs. the penalties you pay in the lower hp car.

I remember watching the small bore race at Lowes Motor Speedway last year. I was surprised that all the H1 cars were either lifting or braking entering Turn 3 (the full banked turn combo). For the H4 cars (and the ITA cars too), there is no lift, there is no brake there. If I make a mistake coming out of the turn that funnels me back on the banking, I pay for that ALL the way around to Turn 1 (about 1/2 of the track). With a more powerful car, I have the possibility of making up distance by driving further into Nascar Turn 3 (because my exit speed coming on the track was less) and it will minimize that mistake. There are probably plenty of examples like that (and several where an H5 car doesn't get the advantage that my H4 car does) but there is a difference and I don't think it only works comparing a slower car to a faster one.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I ***-u-me-d that the engine was the same since the power output was the same....... on me. Thanks mike
</TD></TR></TABLE>
from now on, I think we should only refer to them only in binary. It will greatly reduce the confusion

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by phat-S &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Andrie, I think there is a flaw in your premise (but I think we'd agree that momentum is momentum is momentum and its going to be an important quality for the driver of any class). Essentially, on a track where all turns can be taken flat out, you are correct and there is no playing field differences based on the type of power you make, however, if there are turns that higher hp cars cannot go through flat out (but can use throttle to make up for deficits leading into it) there is a much smaller difference between the penalties you pay in the higher hp car vs. the penalties you pay in the lower hp car.

I remember watching the small bore race at Lowes Motor Speedway last year. I was surprised that all the H1 cars were either lifting or braking entering Turn 3 (the full banked turn combo). For the H4 cars (and the ITA cars too), there is no lift, there is no brake there. If I make a mistake coming out of the turn that funnels me back on the banking, I pay for that ALL the way around to Turn 1 (about 1/2 of the track). With a more powerful car, I have the possibility of making up distance by driving further into Nascar Turn 3 (because my exit speed coming on the track was less) and it will minimize that mistake. There are probably plenty of examples like that (and several where an H5 car doesn't get the advantage that my H4 car does) but there is a difference and I don't think it only works comparing a slower car to a faster one.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I respectfully disagree. If you compare apples to apples (same class) it doesn't make any difference as everybody is the same. You said it yourself, that all H1 cars had to brake. And why do you think they need to do that. Cause inherently, driving a faster car is harder than slower car.

With your argument, you basically comparing H4 cars to H1 cars which we should not do. Comparing the delta between the two when they make mistakes is pointless as there are too many factors.

On the last paragraph, you argue there is a possibility of making up distance if you drive a more powerful car. But making up distance against who? With the same class cars, and the same HP, they will stay in front of you and you will not be able to make up distance. Again you're comparing it because you keep thinking of battling with slower car.

EDIT: Spelling


Modified by Andrie at 2:01 PM 12/27/2004

 

Andrie, I believe Phat S' point is that, in similar type cars, a lower HP car will be on full throttle for a higher percentage of one lap than a higher HP car. Therefore, the same mistake coming out of a turn will penalize the slower HP car more, since it will spend more time going full throttle while always carrying this speed deficit with it that was caused by that mistake. During a lap, a brake zone can be looked at as hitting a reset for your mistakes up to that point since a slightly better run on a straight will not transfer over to the next. The fewer these non-full throttle reset zones, the more a mistake will cost you.

On the flip side, the more non-full throttle sections on a track, the more potential mistakes you can make in a lap. Every time a car needs to be slowed down to go through a section of track, it implies that it has to be driven at 100% of the traction circle we all know while braking, corner entry, mid corner and corner exit. A lower HP car that comes through this section may be able to go flat out. This means that in worst case you are going fast enough to be right at 100% of the traction circle. But this is still "simpler" since there is no need to worry about any kind of braking, corner entry, or corner exit phases because there is no weight transfer to play with like in a traditional corner since you are always on 100% throttle.

Nevertheless, what makes a driver fast in a lower hp car are the same factors that would make him/her fast in a higher hp car. The physics are the same. The only difference is when and where you would need to apply these factors.

Also, what I mean by a "mistake" here is not one that parks you in the tire wall, but one that causes you to go through a section at anything less than on the outer edge of the traction circle at all times. All imo of course! Happy holidays.