I'm having a debate with a Del Sol owner about his cage and harness set-up. From these pics, it looks as if his shoulder belts are mounted too high. Not to mention that they're mounted to the top bar of the cage (rear bar of the halo) as opposed to a proper harness bar. Any thoughts on this?

 

His response to me was this:

"actually the harness mounting is proper to FIA and SCCA, and the cage was done by a SCCA steward

and as far as the harness mounting goes:
http://www.gforce.com/pdf/harnessinstall.pdf

If the upper attachment point falls significantly below the driver's shoulder, then a spinal compression injury is likely to occur. In an accident situation, the shoulder belts pull down and back on the torso as they resist the forward motion of the driver. The resultant restraint force compresses the spinal column and will add to the stresses in the spine already caused by the force of the crash impact. On the other hand, if the trailing ends of the harness are too far above the shoulder (greater than 30°), then two problems can occur. First, tension in the shoulder harness is increased and undue stress is applied to the harness and its structural attachments. Second, excessive angle will cause excessive motion. If the harness belts are too far above the shoulder, they will provide little resistance to forward motion of the driver’s upper torso. The result is impact with the steering wheel and the possibility of neck injury. The shoulder straps should also be 3-6” apart behind the driver's neck to prevent slippage off the shoulders.

They are in the upper range but still acceptable. above the shoulders is better than under"

 

What is that cage for, anyway? It's so small! Is the driver a midget?

 

I don't think I'd trust sitting in that thing in my own driveway.

 

whhhhat IS that!?!?!?!?

 

Bad news. The cage is a POS to begin with anyway. Like it was designed to be seen. "OMGZ ch3k owt da c4ge in dat sportz c4r y01!!1"

 

Jeez . . . I can't seem to get through to the guy . . . here's the whole thread: https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1077790

About page 3 is where the cage debate really gets going.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TeamSlowdotOrg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The cage is a POS to begin with anyway. Like it was designed to be seen. "OMGZ ch3k owt da c4ge in dat sportz c4r y01!!1"
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Exactly what I was thinking. I would absolutely never ride in that thing; if I could even get into it somehow with that side bar so low.

 

Notice the wing upright held to the mounting bracket with a zip-tie.

He argues that an SCCA steward built the cage. I bet the conversation went something like this.

Builder: "You need to take your interior out, and cut the dashboard."

Speed Racer: "Man I don't want to do that y0!"

Builder: "Ok, your cage will just be a rollbar with some pieces of tube going forward through your AC vents. "

Speed Racer: "Whatever man, just so long as it's a cage!"

Builder: "It's not really a cage..."

Speed Racer: "Whatever man, it looks totally sweet!"

Builder: " Fine, just pay me..."

 

That thing looks like it was built by little Timmy down the street. What a "Death Trap". Can you even see out the front window? If it ever rolls over, it will instantly cut those harnesses thus ending your life. Total Rice...

 

I don't see anu rear supports for the main hoop.

I don't see any petty bar.

The cage seems to low in the car.

The forward support from the main hoop to the A pillar is too low.

Unwritten law says seat belts should never be attached to main hoop. Too close to roof on rollover might sever belts.

Shoulder belts attached to bar using improper "lacing".

Shoulder belts should go to the rear at a 90 degree angle to the spine when viewed from the side.

Shoulder belts should not contact seat. That is seat should not be a direction changer for the belts.

That's all I could see at first glance.


Modified by Grumpy at 12:00 PM 12/10/2004

 

Well, if the roll cage fails, maybe that giant wing will protect him in a rollover.

 

the cage was made by a steward at a shop owned by a cermont region SCCA tech inspector and he approved the cage before it was done and after. if you guys b=would read the FIA specs that I posted in the other thread you would see that it is proper and you can't say anything about where the harnesses are going to sit without seeing the driver in that car. I've noticed alot of you "H-T Experts" make up your own **** and don't really know anything. The cage and harness setup in the care are done to the 03 GCR, cause thats when it was done and to the current FIA specs. Say whatever any of you like but I know its done right and if you knew anything you would know the same.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TeamSlowdotOrg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Notice the wing upright held to the mounting bracket with a zip-tie.

He argues that an SCCA steward built the cage. I bet the conversation went something like this.

Builder: "You need to take your interior out, and cut the dashboard."

Speed Racer: "Man I don't want to do that y0!"

Builder: "Ok, your cage will just be a rollbar with some pieces of tube going forward through your AC vents. "

Speed Racer: "Whatever man, just so long as it's a cage!"

Builder: "It's not really a cage..."

Speed Racer: "Whatever man, it looks totally sweet!"

Builder: " Fine, just pay me..."
</TD></TR></TABLE>
actually the dash is all cut up on the inside and the idea of the vents wasn't mine. it provides the proper angle for the forward bars and I didn't really have any say on the install.

 

How far away is your head from the bars? What about while wearing a helmet?
You would have to know this to know whether or not this cage is legal.

Why are there no rear supports for the main hoop? I see only diagonals.

I repeat. Don't tell people this is a legitimate and safe competition cage, because IT IS NOT. If someone repeats this wonderful cage of yours and rolls his car at a track day with it, he's likely to get injured very badly or killed. You can be happy with it if you want, you obviously don't care to listen to good advice about it but it's your car and your neck.

 

Grumpy is like the NASA God of Safety. If it was built to specs according to the '03 GCR, he shouldn't be able to find a problem with it. Instead, he found several. The "harness severing in event of rollover" should be enough to make you want to move them. The whole point of a rollbar is to protect you in that case, yet you've seriously compromised ANY safety you once had. These "experts" you're criticizing are looking out for your own good, and given that you seem to not be doing that yourself, try taking some advice from them.

 

By the way, to anyone that knows what they're talking about, how does one add a bar to a Del Sol, given that there seems to be no space for the rear diagonals?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Grumpy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I don't see anu rear supports for the main hoop.

I don't see any petty bar.

The cage seems to low in the car.

The forward support from the main hoop to the A pillar is too low.

Unwritten law says seat belts should never be attached to main hoop. Too close to roof on rollover might sever belts.

Shoulder belts attached to bar using improper "lacing".

Shoulder belts should go to the rear at a 90 degree angle to the spine when viewed from the side.

Shoulder belts should not contact seat. That is seat should not be a direction changer for the belts.

That's all I could see at first glance.


Modified by Grumpy at 12:00 PM 12/10/2004</TD></TR></TABLE>
they are there

they are there also

ummm.... too low.....??????. it sits a 1/4 inch from the roof of the car so I don't see how it's too low, or better how a cage could be too low.

again with the low..... its as high as possible without putting it outside the car.

I usualy tend to go by the book, but you have a point, but I know the rear part of the roof in a del sol is already reinforced like a roll bar so I'm not worried.

the lacing is to the FIA instructions that came with the harnesses,so they must be wrong.

again the FIA specs are wrong, those idiots. check the pdf at the top.

how can you see that they contact the seat without me sitting in it. you must have special future vision.

 

Too low = hit unhelmeted head on metal bar in accident = brains all over the window, door, seat, etc.

Again, for your own good

Edit: That too.
I
I
I
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<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by funkfnamna &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
ummm.... too low.....??????. it sits a 1/4 inch from the roof of the car so I don't see how it's too low, or better how a cage could be too low.

again with the low..... its as high as possible without putting it outside the car.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

It's too low, because the top of your head is higher than the bar. That is completely unsafe, illegal, and very dangerous in a rollover situation. That alone would keep me out of that car.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sscguy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">By the way, to anyone that knows what they're talking about, how does one add a bar to a Del Sol, given that there seems to be no space for the rear diagonals?</TD></TR></TABLE>There's a mid-engine-esque allowance to cut holes in the trunk and rear glass for the diagonals so they can be mounted properly.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TeamSlowdotOrg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">There's a mid-engine-esque allowance to cut holes in the trunk and rear glass for the diagonals so they can be mounted properly. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Yikes! So in other words, you better be awfully damn serious if you want to do it in a Del Sol. A couple holes in the floor is one thing, cutting up the body...yeesh.

 

Bah, it's just a trunk lid.

It's in the notes section in the ITCS

"Petty bar style cage is permitted. Rear cage braces may pass through window"

The reason his cage isn't legal is that you can only mount the diagonals to the shoulder belt mount points if you also include a petty bar.

 

rice out yo!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TeamSlowdotOrg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The reason his cage isn't legal is </TD></TR></TABLE>

You mean beyond the fact that there are no diagonals to begin with, right?