questions: I couldnt get sunoco 94 cuz they were closed, so i drove back to school with like and 8th of tank. My gaslight when on and off a few times along the way, and now it is on totally when i got here. The needle is almost on the E. My question is how many miles will i get if i shift at like 2500 and barely gas it? Im planning on going tommorow with little traffic i think i have like 15 miles to go before i get there. Please help. also, if i ran out of gas, what kind of damage could that do? thanks.

 

i don't think there would be too much damage if you run out of gas. however, the fuel filter may be getting worked more because of the "dirty" fuel. i try to not drive on E and no i'm not talking about ecstacy.
btw, i think you'll be fine for another 15 miles if you're that **** about what gas you put in your car if your gas light just started to stay on permanently.

 

its not completely that im ****, i am a little about it, but i heard its bad to switch octane plus i am going to the track on wednesday so i just wanted to get the best, I thought I would have made it farther with the gas i had then i will, but thanks for the reply, ill give it a shot tommorow. any one else have a more specific quote from the manual?

 

If your R is bone stock why don't you just be safe and put chevron in it. Btw, I bet you will make it but in traffic it might be a little harder.

 

whats the deal with chevron?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TypeRlove &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">whats the deal with chevron?</TD></TR></TABLE>

what's the deal with sunoco then? i know in washington state, we don't get 94 octane, but we get 93 or 92? anyway, i don't see the difference in 93 chevron or shell 93. get the point? any major gas station with high octane will be sufficient.

 

When the gas light comes on and stays on, you have like 2.5 gallons left (I know for a fact my old prelude had 2.9 gallons).

If you baby it you'll likely get 30 MPG. So, when it came on and stayed on, you might be safe with 60 more miles.

Also, Xylene or Toluene makes a great octane booster. Hehehe. 1 gallon in 9 gallons of 93 octane will get you to 95.5 octane. I run it 20% on the track, which is 98 octane. I'm tuned on 93 octane, but it's a little safer.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TypeRlove &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i heard its bad to switch octane </TD></TR></TABLE>

That's a load of crap. Plenty of R owners run 91 Octane.

-Chris

 

i just run 94 cuz i think i got regular pumped by some dumbass exxon guy , so i put in the 94, and my butt dyno said its faster i just like it for some crazy reason. i used to regularly use exxon 93. i wasnt being a smartass about chevron, just never used it before so was wondering their octanes/reputation. thanks to all i feel like i should be ok tommorow. oh, does it say in the owners manual that there is 2.5 gallons when the light goes on??

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TypeRlove &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">oh, does it say in the owners manual that there is 2.5 gallons when the light goes on??</TD></TR></TABLE>

regardless if it says it does or not, we are all pretty sure you'll make the 16 mile journey tomorrow. anyway, i see why you would put in high octane fuel. i only put the highest that's available, which i will reiterate again as 93. i probably won't notice a difference between chevron 93, shell 93, or exxon 93. however, i stay away from exxon for some reason. many people around the area get their fuel from the same distributor though.

 

why do you stay away form exxon? i used it for a year in my R and it was fine, i just thought about it and 94 is better for me.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TypeRlove &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i just run 94 cuz i think i got regular pumped by some dumbass exxon guy , so i put in the 94, and my butt dyno said its faster i just like it for some crazy reason. i used to regularly use exxon 93. i wasnt being a smartass about chevron, just never used it before so was wondering their octanes/reputation. thanks to all i feel like i should be ok tommorow. oh, does it say in the owners manual that there is 2.5 gallons when the light goes on??</TD></TR></TABLE>

My '84 Prelude manual said 2.9. I'm too lazy to go and look for my ITR one, but I thought it was between 2-3. And I run my gas pretty low (fill up 11 gallons sometimes).

 

i gotcha, i just got nervous because i usually get my gas when i go to get it, its just sunday so for some reason 8 oclock was too late for sunoco to serve me...gotta remember next time, sundays are no good for getting gas. i plan on rolling downhill in neutral tommorow just to be safe, but ill be in shock if i run out on such a short drive. thanks

 

You're pretty right about not wanting to change octance's as a rule of thumb. When the barrel went above $50, here in CA we suffered pretty bad and I took some 87 octane, over my usual 91 octane to cut costs.

I cannot tell you how bad the car reacted, it must have been just really bad batch of gas but it was unbearable! The car threw CEL's and stuttered and lost I'd say more than 60% power. It was awful and I had to siphon the gas and immediately put 91 back in while resetting the ECU, of course it could have been worse, but it was a pain trying to pinpoint the problem.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SavageNation &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You're pretty right about not wanting to change octance's as a rule of thumb. When the barrel went above $50, here in CA we suffered pretty bad and I took some 87 octane, over my usual 91 octane to cut costs. </TD></TR></TABLE>

 

You'll be fine, next!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SavageNation &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You're pretty right about not wanting to change octance's as a rule of thumb. When the barrel went above $50, here in CA we suffered pretty bad and I took some 87 octane, over my usual 91 octane to cut costs.

I cannot tell you how bad the car reacted, it must have been just really bad batch of gas but it was unbearable! The car threw CEL's and stuttered and lost I'd say more than 60% power. It was awful and I had to siphon the gas and immediately put 91 back in while resetting the ECU, of course it could have been worse, but it was a pain trying to pinpoint the problem.</TD></TR></TABLE>

There is a reason that it says "Premium" gas on the gauge cluster. Hopefully you will not be as cheap at everything else in life.

Back to topic; as long as you are not heavy on the throttle, you should be fine.

 

The only damage you can get from running to empty is your fuel pump could get hot, too hot and possibly burn out. (RARE)

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nightrider &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> however, the fuel filter may be getting worked more because of the "dirty" fuel. </TD></TR></TABLE>

How much truth is there to this? Doesn't the fuel pull from the bottom of the tank anyway?

 

thanks alot to the R owners of h-t

 

.....rule of thumb: ~50 miles left after gas light comes on.

Next!

Now to go off-topic:

What's the highest octane UNLEADED you can buy?

 

i've gone at least 25 miles with the light on, and my car fully loaded. I think i had a gallon left.

it'd be sweet if you can time it perfectly and run out of gas as you just coast into the station..

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Black R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What's the highest octane UNLEADED you can buy? </TD></TR></TABLE>

The highest I've ever seen at a pump is 94.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by dk127 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

it'd be sweet if you can time it perfectly and run out of gas as you just coast into the station.. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Hey I've done that!

 

117. Run straight Xylene. (You didn't say Gasoline... ) 114 for Toluene.

Sunoco 100 octane is common. Surely it's a cocktail of MTBE/Toluene/Xylene, but for the most octane point raising I'd guess it's simply 30-40% Toluene. (see below article)

below info shamelessly copied/pasted from a Miata forum, not the source.

_______________________________

Q: Why do you think toluene is better than other types of octane boosters?

A: Several reasons:

Mindful of the evil reputation of octane boosters in general, toluene is a very safe choice because it is one of the main octane boosters used by oil companies in producing ordinary gasoline of all grades. Thus if toluene is indeed harmful to your engine as feared, your engine would have disintegrated long, long ago since ordinary pump gasoline can contain as much as 50% aromatic hydrocarbons.

Toluene is a pure hydrocarbon (C7H8). i.e. it contains only hydrogen and carbon atoms. It belongs to a particular category of hydrocarbons called aromatic hydrocarbons. Complete combustion of toluene yields CO2 and H2O. This fact ensures that the entire emission control system such as the catalyst and oxygen sensor of your car is unaffected. There are no metallic compounds (lead, magnesium etc), no nitro compounds and no oxygen atoms in toluene. It is made up of exactly the same ingredients as ordinary gasoline. In fact it is one of the main ingredients of gasoline.

Toluene has a RON octane rating of 121 and a MON rating of 107, leading to a (R+M)/2 rating of 114. (R+M)/2 is how ordinary fuels are rated in the US. Note that toluene has a sensitivity rating of 121-107=14. This compares favorably with alcohols which have sensitivities in the 20-30 range. The more sensitive a fuel is the more its performance degrades under load. Toluene's low sensitivity means that it is an excellent fuel for a heavily loaded engine.

Toluene is denser than ordinary gasoline (0.87 g/mL vs. 0.72-0.74) and contains more energy per unit volume. Thus combustion of toluene leads to more energy being liberated and thus more power generated. This is in contrast to oxygenated octane boosters like ethanol or MTBE which contain less energy per unit volume compared to gasoline. The higher heating value of toluene also means that the exhaust gases contain more kinetic energy, which in turn means that there is more energy to drive turbocharger vanes. In practical terms this is experienced as a faster onset of turbo boost.

Chevron's published composition of 100 octane aviation fuel shows that toluene comprises up to 14% alone and is the predominant aromatic hydrocarbon. Unfortunately composition specifications for automotive gasoline is harder to pin down due to constantly changing requirements. Race gas usually contains from 30-40% Toluene or a greater amount than the 10-15% 91-92 oct pump gas has plus the amount you would add.
Chevron's web site also describes the problems of ethanol being used in gasoline.

MTBE was heavily touted as a clean additive several years ago, and became a key ingredient in reformulated gasoline that is sold in California. But recently new studies arose that showed that MTBE was far more toxic than previously imagined. Organizations such as oxybusters have formed around the country to eliminate the use of MTBE in gasoline and several states, including California have passed new laws to eventually outlaw MTBE.


Q: How much toluene should I use per tank of gas?

A: Octane ratings can be very easily calculated by simple averaging. For example, the tank of an Audi A4 1.8TQ is 15.6 gallons. Filling it with 14.6 gallons of 92 octane and 1 gallon of toluene (114 octane) will yield a fuel mix of:

(14.6 * 92) + (1 * 114) / 15.6 = 93.4

The Audi A4 1.8T is a good example of a car that has very high octane needs if it has been modified to produce more turbo boost. The base compression ratio of this car is a very high 9.5:1 and when an additional 1 bar (14.7 psi) of turbo boost is applied on top of it, the resulting effective compression ratio is way beyond what 92 or 93 octane fuel can ever hope to cope with. Most modified 1.8Ts running without octane enhancement are running with severely retarded ignition timing and boost.


Q: Will toluene damage my engine or other parts of my car?

A: A 5 or 10% increase in the aromatic content of gas will most likely be well within the refining specifications of gasoline defined by ASTM D4814, which specify an aromatic content of between 20% and 45%. What this means is that if the 92 octane gas that you started off with had a total aromatic content of say 30% and you increased it by 10% to 40% you would still be left with a mix that meets the industry definition of gasoline. So the above question would amount to: "Will gasoline damage my engine or other parts of my car?"

Even in the unlikely event that the 92 octane gas has a aromatic content of 45% the resulting mix would still be within the bounds of gasoline sold in other countries.


Q: Isn't toluene an extremely toxic substance?

A: The common perception of toluene's toxicity far exceeds reality. Fortunately there is an ample body of information available that specifically addresses this question. Toluene is more toxic than gasoline but it is certainly not agent orange or cyanide. See the Agency for Toxic Substances link below in the reference section.

US Environmental Protection Agency Chemical Summary

US Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry (ATSDR)

National priority list of toxic substances
Note that the ATSDR also rates gasoline as a hazardous substance.

Mobil's spec sheet for toluene even goes as far as saying that "Based on available toxicological information, it has been determined that this product poses no significant health risk when used and handled properly."


Q: Isn't toluene an active ingredient of TNT (trinitrotoluene) and is thus deadly?

A: In the same way that cotton wool is the base ingredient of nitrocellulose (guncotton) which in turn is the main ingredient in modern smokeless gunpowder. Using this reasoning one could conclude that cotton wool is a deadly substance. This question reflects a poor understanding of basic chemistry but unfortunately it has been asked often enough.


Q: How much does toluene cost, and where can I buy some?

A: $10/gallon in a one gallon can at a hardware store, about $6/gallon in a 5 gallon can from a chemical supply or paint store, or $3/gallon in a 55 gallon drum from a chemical supply warehouse.

A2: Experience of Charlie Smith in 2002. Sherwin Williams paint stores have it for $5.00 in a gallon can. They can order it in a 5 gallon can at $4.00 / gallon. They can order 55 gallon drums for about the same cost per gallon, but you have to have a dock unloading facility to get the drum(s) off of the delivery truck.

A3: I just sourced Sherwin Williams Toluene for $4.80/gallon with a five gallon purchase as a cash account holder. 04/02/03

Q: Can I just dump in 100% toluene into the tank like the F1 racers? vroom vroom vroom

A: First of all, the F1 racers did not use 100% toluene, but 84%. The other 16% in their brew is n-heptane, which has an octane rating of zero. The reason for this strange combination is because the F1 rocket fuel was limited to the rules to being of 102 RON octane. The n-heptane is "filler" to make the fuel comply with the rules.

Because toluene is such an effective anti knock fuel it also means that it is more difficult to ignite at low temperatures. The Formula 1 cars that ran on 84% toluene needed to have hot radiator air diverted to heat its fuel tank to 70C to assist its vaporization. Thus too strong a concentration of toluene will lead to poor cold start and running characteristics. I recommend that the concentration of toluene used to not exceed what the engine is capable of utilizing. i.e. Experiment with small increases in concentration until you can no longer detect an improvement.


Q: Why not simply use racing gasoline or aviation fuel?

A1: Most types of aviation fuel have very high lead content, which would rule out cars equipped with catalytic converters. Most piston engined aircraft burn leaded fuel. Also aviation fuel has a very different hydrocarbon mix to optimize volatility properties at high altitude.

A2: Racing gasoline could be a much more convenient way to run high octane fuel compared to having to constantly mix in toluene with each fill up. There are, however a few caveats:


You don't know for sure if you are really getting what is being advertised. You should find out if the fuel inspectors verify the actual octane of the racing gasoline in addition to ordinary gasoline. If you paid $5/gallon and only got 94 or 95 octane instead of 100 octane you may conclude erroneously that your car does not benefit from octane boosting.

You don't know what octane boosters are used in the racing gasoline. The worst case scenario is buying leaded racing gasoline without knowing it. Unleaded racing gasoline may still contain damaging octane boosters like MMT or methanol. A very high alcohol content will lead to fuel line erosion, accelerated fuel pump wear, very poor fuel economy and possibly lower performance, as alcohols have a less impressive MON rating than aromatics.

It takes smaller quantities of toluene to achieve the same octane boost compared to 100 octane racing gas. I have not seen unleaded racing gas for sale that exceeds the octane rating of toluene.

Since toluene is not officially sold as a fuel, gas taxes do not apply. Also racing gasoline tend to have higher markups being of interest to the performance minded enthusiast and thus is very likely to be more expensive to buy and use long term than toluene, which is typically used in more mundane applications like paint thinner.

Q: Ok, what is the catch?

A: It should be mentioned that in the US, efforts are underway to reduce the aromatic content of gasolines in general as a higher aromatic content leads to higher benzene emissions. Benzene is an extremely toxic substance. However it should also be noted that the proportions that is being discussed in this FAQ is relatively small and in the grand scheme of things is probably insignificant. Moreover, the industrial standard for defining gasoline composition allows plenty of leeway in aromatic content and the proportions present in US gas is already lower than most other countries. I therefore feel that the information provided here is useful to a performance minded car enthusiast while not being significantly detrimental to the environment.
AND consider that the race gas you purchase may have a higher Toluene content than the 10-20% self-mixed variety.


Q: What safety measures can you recommend in handling toluene?

A: The following is a good reference guide:
Use the same precautions as gasoline

Reference materials:


1. Gasoline FAQ

2. McLaren Honda Turbo - a technical appraisal
Ian Bamsey
ISBN 0-85429-840-1, published 1990

3. Chevron's excellent Motor Gasolines Technical Review

4. Agency for Toxic Substances FAQ on Toluene
In summary:
Use in a well ventilated area, don't drink even a little of it, and
report spills of more than 1000 pounds to the National Response Center

5. Toxic Chemicals in your Environment (Australia) FAQ on Toluene
In summary:
this "Total Environment Center" likes a totally chemical free environment,
and even at that they can't find fault about much more than acute exposure
cases, and they also say not to drink any of it.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TypeRlove &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">questions: I couldnt get sunoco 94 cuz they were closed, so i drove back to school with like and 8th of tank. My gaslight when on and off a few times along the way, and now it is on totally when i got here. The needle is almost on the E. My question is how many miles will i get if i shift at like 2500 and barely gas it? Im planning on going tommorow with little traffic i think i have like 15 miles to go before i get there. Please help. also, if i ran out of gas, what kind of damage could that do? thanks. </TD></TR></TABLE>

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