I've heard the Honda Cup series mentioned a few times.....
What are the details?

Paul
#51 ITR B18C5


ProAutoSports.Com - Pro Sedan 1
SCCA SoPac - Radial Sedan
NASA - H1

 

Kiwi, where you at?

 

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1022901

mentioned in here

 

Hi Dennis,
Congrats on your season!

Do you think that H1 ITR's will be competitive next year on a race by race basis?

What did you get your ITR's weight down to? Edit...Let me rephrase that.

Did you get your ITR down to 2200lbs w/driver?

Paul


Modified by PaulB at 2:32 AM 11/6/2004

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PaulB &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Hi Dennis,
Congrats on your season! </TD></TR></TABLE>

Thanks!

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PaulB &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Do you think that H1 ITR's will be competitive next year on a race by race basis? </TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes- but with what motor? Ryans is Faasstt...

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PaulB &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> What did you get your ITR's weight down to?

Paul</TD></TR></TABLE>

No ITR in H1 for me- it's an EK Civic Hatch- 2150 ish without me.

Like yourself, I too am wondering what all the fast H1 guys are doing next year. OooooOohhh, the drama.....

 

Sorry bout that....for some reason I was thinking you were in a ITR at Cal speedway at the beginning of the year.

I look forward to the new season(s) schedules along with hopefully some rules updates.

The SCCA CalClub has a decent rules set in "Radial Sedan" based on engine type, displacement with a sliding min. weight although the K series motors would carry more weight than the 2350lbs and the multi-valve CRX also wouldn't be running at 2200lbs.
It looks like it would help even out the pwr/lbs difference between say a 1.8 ITR vs LS-Vec CRX and a JDM K series in a hatch. What did the recent Honda-Tuning article say about the K series 9:1 WOW!!!

Paul


Modified by PaulB at 2:55 PM 11/6/2004

 

IMO an H1 car is going to be completly out powered in the honda cup.


You can run a sleeved 2.0 liter B seires and make some damn good number.


k24 with forged bottom end internals and a k20a head with the Toda package? DAMN you would make some HP

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by D.CACO &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Like yourself, I too am wondering what all the fast H1 guys are doing next year. OooooOohhh, the drama.....</TD></TR></TABLE>

Donno about the fast guys, but I'll be there next season. Though NOT with a new ITR motor. You can just wave when you go by, Dennis.

 

It's another attempt to revive at the (fill in name here) Touring Car series.

I can't help but wonder why people would think that, if there aren't enough cars around to make a series viable, of ALL makes prepared to that kind of level, why there are likely to be enough Hondas to make it fly.

This is actually a great case study in why road racing in the US struggles to reach any level of maturation, as a sport and a business. People LOVE to put their own interests and ideas about what "racing should be" ahead of any logical planning about what is required to be sustainable. GrandAm has finally got it right and in 10 years, half of us are going to be watching the best road racing in the world and the other half are going to be whining about the NASCAR-ification of "their sport."

Honda Cup is going to be a huge fizzle, even though I'm sure that the organizers' hearts are in the right place. Why they don't just run SP, ITE, or whatever is beyond me.

K

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knestis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It's another attempt to revive at the (fill in name here) Touring Car series.

I can't help but wonder why people would think that, if there aren't enough cars around to make a series viable, of ALL makes prepared to that kind of level, why there are likely to be enough Hondas to make it fly.

This is actually a great case study in why road racing in the US struggles to reach any level of maturation, as a sport and a business. People LOVE to put their own interests and ideas about what "racing should be" ahead of any logical planning about what is required to be sustainable. GrandAm has finally got it right and in 10 years, half of us are going to be watching the best road racing in the world and the other half are going to be whining about the NASCAR-ification of "their sport."

Honda Cup is going to be a huge fizzle, even though I'm sure that the organizers' hearts are in the right place. Why they don't just run SP, ITE, or whatever is beyond me.

K</TD></TR></TABLE>

Amen brother.

Why the hell is it that people decide that instead of making a few minor concessions to play with everyone else that instead they should come up with their own series and their own rules just to get what they want? I can see when the original series is totally doing a bad job but that's not the case with Honda Challenge. And of course, people who think they can do a better job often have no idea of how to be successful nor what is realistic and what is not. I think of USTCC as a prime example of this. Good idea, but why would anyone want to spend significant money on a series that is very similar to World Challenge but gets none of the exposure?

I mean damn, look around. How many race series have an unlimited formula and is successful. I can think of only 1. And that is NOT a club racing series. Anytime someone suggests a damned near unlimited race series format I always have to assume that person (or persons) is an idiot. I guess if your goal is to have a catch-all class where people can fool around or as a place for ex-pro cars then its not such a bad idea.

Kirk you hit the nail right on the head. Grand Am has a sustainable formula. Whether the manufacturers come or go they'll still be viable and their ruleset is not at the mercy of the supreme idiocy of the FIA. I remember when we toured Ferrari of Washington's race shop and I was talking to the team manager and I asked why Grand Am instead of ALMS. This was back when the Grand Am grids were really thin (first year of the DP's). He said long term that Grand Am was going to be a much better series. Better rules, better cost, and ultimately better value. His prediction has pretty much come to fruition in just one year.

BTW
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
This is actually a great case study in why road racing in the US struggles to reach any level of maturation, as a sport and a business. People LOVE to put their own interests and ideas about what "racing should be" ahead of any logical planning about what is required to be sustainable.</TD></TR></TABLE>

This is exactly why Trans Am is on life support and US open wheel racing is in disarray.

 

I dont think it is an attempt to revive a touring car series.

This series come to life solely because of few fellas that are not satisfied with current rules and leadership. I don't agree with them, as I think the current rule is fine, and our leaders has been doing a fine job.

I don't know why you said Grand Am has got it right. I don't enjoy watching Grand Am cause there are so many classes in one race, which is typical to any endurance series. Me personally like Sprint races better like World Challenge. or BTCC.

 

John,
it is nice to hear you will be joining us in H1. Are you going to run D series in H1? The first D series in H1?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knestis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">GrandAm has finally got it right and in 10 years, half of us are going to be watching the best road racing in the world and the other half are going to be whining about the NASCAR-ification of "their sport."</TD></TR></TABLE>



http://www.offcamber.net/forum...=5900 &lt;----discussion about Grand-Am vs. "traditional" sports car racing from another forum I post on. I was in the minority, but clearly the other side didn't get it, and the mods closes the thread when it became apparent I was actually making sense for once!

 

well... it looks like Honda Cup will be out of my $$$'s reach.

I am happy with HC... but I live in AZ were there are 2 H1 cars and maybe 4 H4's so I am always open to another "series idea" .

This was not meant to start a "us vs them" thread. Most of my racing locally isn't against Honda's it's against M3's, 944 Turbos, ect.....hopefully we will biuld the series in AZ like we did in 944-Spec which had about 20 cars at one point.

Paul

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by D.CACO &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Kiwi, where you at?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Did you think I had gone away?... I have the right to remain silent... I just don't have the ability! (Quote: Someone else?)

If you don't like it... Don't do it! Thats pretty much the answer I always got to my suggestions for HC. And if you don't like it Move On ... So moving on is what I'm going to do. It's cool that I'm not on my own though, I was actually starting to believe that maybe I was the only one who had concerns? I'm amazed at the interest this new class has attracted! The first round at Fontana will be interesting, I believe we will have at least 12 cars for the first round?
Just for the record...
The New SCCA Honda Cup came along at just the right time for some of us who are ready to move on...
The fact that the Honda Cup rules are similar to what We have been pushing for with NASA is just great! Shows that we were not just a voice in the wilderness.

It has nothing to do with splitting the ranks of Honda Challenge. And I certainly don't want to get into a NASA Bashing contest. My opinions both good and bad, on the way Honda Challenge and NASA officialdom works have been well publicised and I stick by them! Everyone will see the light some day and I wish them well.
I may not be welcome at NASA because I have the ***** to say what I think! But unfortunately that takes our 4 cars out of H1... I have no ill feelings, and bear no grudges. Everyone will be welcome at Honda Cup!

Yes, S.C.C.A. Has been planing on such a series for a while.
No, Honda Cup is <U>not</U> my "Brain Child" But I will be proud to work with all those involved and to give any assistance I can to make it work.
Yes, The preliminary Honda Cup rules were drawn up over a period of time with everyone invited to make additions and changes. A democratic vote was cast 100% for the rules as posted. The rules will now be inforced by SCCA. Not the drivers.
Any eligibility inspections, should they be required? will be carried out by SCCA Officials. The rules are easy to police so there will be no engine tear downs at the track!
No, there will be no conflicts of interest in this series.
No, It will not be more expensive to run late model motors with the Honda Cup rules... (We of all teams know the exact cost of running H1 rules) And we have done our homework.
I will still be running a B Series engine. Not a 'k' With aftermarket rods as you may think?
Yes, Honda Cup will be well publicised and marketed, and we will run at some great venues. Major Sponsors are, and will be involved, Great Trophys, and in due course there will Prize Money worth racing for.
All HC Cars will be welcome! Although some may not be competitive at the start, I believe a couple of extra classes are in the pipeline.

If you only want to run NASA HC ... Do it!
If you want to run Honda Cup... Do it!
If you want to run Both? ... Do it!

EVERYONE... I don't see this new series as a 'Them' or 'Us' thing, and I certainly don't want to see it turn into that! Race where ever you want! Don't write pages of crap about things you know nothing about. Lets just see what happens? and be glad we all have alternatives!

Kiwi

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by KIWI &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

All HC Cars will be welcome! Although some may not be competitive at the start, I believe a couple of extra classes are in the pipeline.

</TD></TR></TABLE>


Wondering if anyone knows "early" details of other classes... B Series only ?????? So i can start thinking ahead of what my plans might be in the next few years

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by oxstarsstripesxo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


Wondering if anyone knows "early" details of other classes... B Series only ?????? So i can start thinking ahead of what my plans might be in the next few years</TD></TR></TABLE>

http://www.honda-cup.com/HCRules.pdf

I asked about D series and was told not yet since my friend was thinking about doing both

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JMU R1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Amen brother.
Why the hell is it that people decide that instead of making a few minor concessions to play with everyone else that instead they should come up with their own series and their own rules just to get what they want? I can see when the original series is totally doing a bad job but that's not the case with Honda Challenge. And of course, people who think they can do a better job often have no idea of how to be successful nor what is realistic and what is not. I think of USTCC as a prime example of this. Good idea, but why would anyone want to spend significant money on a series that is very similar to World Challenge but gets none of the exposure?</TD></TR></TABLE>

For a start...
It has nothing to do with making concessions. And if getting what you want means going to another organization? Why Not?
S.C.C.A. Has made a (not unexpected) move in setting up this Series, and why shouldn't they? Don't they have the right to try and recover some of the former members they lost to NASA?
You could make the same arguments as to why NASA was formed? A bunch of guys not happy with SCCA?
Why was Honda Challenge formed? A bunch of guys getting what they want?
Why did NASA take over Honda Challenge, if not to get one up on SCCA?
And without wishing to cast doubt on any other organization which is made up of Franchise holders, some who have definite conflicts of interest. Do you really think that SCCA couldn't do a professional job of running a series?
Those of us who are going to run in S.C.C.A. Honda Cup, are doing so because we have the choice. Not because we have some beef with NASA! Hell run both if you can!
You can't please everyone. But now there is yet another place for people who want a little more...
By the way I fully agree with you about USTCC... Great concept, just badly thought out, Conflicting interest, and no Democracy.

I say again, I hope this doesn't turn into another "Them V's Us" deal? There is no need for that to happen.

Kiwi

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by KIWI &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Did you think I had gone away?... I have the right to remain silent... I just don't have the ability! (Quote: Someone else?) </TD></TR></TABLE>

Did I think you went away? Of course not, that's why I was calling on you.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by KIWI &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> If you don't like it... Don't do it! </TD></TR></TABLE>


Oh, and I never said I "didn't like it" (if in fact you were writing to me directly). I'm the token rookie this year, and I have had a great season with no complaints. We had a great time, and we're looking forward to seeing what everyone is doing next year. Half of the draw of racing (for our team) is the comeraderie and the dinners after the races...

I hope we have big groups a dinner still, if you know what I mean.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by thawley &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Donno about the fast guys, but I'll be there next season. Though NOT with a new ITR motor. You can just wave when you go by, Dennis.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Awesome Thawley. That's great to know you'll be out there- who else has committed to NASA Honda Challenge next year? Obviously Andrie is, and we all know he'll be taking a bunch of 1st place trophies next year in the North and the South.

Bottom-line is, I hope that there is enough competition (and exposure?) in both camps to make it worthwhile for everyone.


-Dennis "Who just tried to use the spell-checker for the first time, and would rather misspel everything" Caco

 

"competition improves the breed"

with a new series dirrectly in competion with Nasa's ow HC it will force both parties to continually improve there series and hopefull make it even better

 

No Dennis my statement was general and not directed at you...

I have the greatest admiration for you and you're team. You all did a wonderful job last season and I know we can all expect great things from you next season?

Yes the camaraderie and the dinners were great, and will continue next year I'm sure. We intend to make the Honda Cup just as much fun, but more rewarding...

Good luck with whatever you decide to do, and whatever series you decide to run.
The offer of the Honda Cup motor still stands. We have our engine program for 2005 underway, we expect to produce a lot more HP & Reliability for very little, if any cost increase.

Kiwi

 

Kiwi,
Please keep me posted....
Which races of the SCCA Calclub are Cup races and additional car classes?
Paul

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sans &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">"competition improves the breed"

with a new series dirrectly in competion with Nasa's ow HC it will force both parties to continually improve there series and hopefull make it even better </TD></TR></TABLE>

BZZZTTTTTT WRONG!!!

It can have a positive effect in that it shakes up the status quo but more often the case is that the series cannibalize each other's entrants. Most teams/racers can't afford to run a full season of both series so they only do one or the other which results in both series having weaker grids or one series dying. See USTCC vs WC, ALMS vs Grand-Am, SuperkartsUSA vs Stars of Tomorrow, CART vs IRL...

I don't think this will seriously be the case with Honda Cup vs HC H1 because even now there are people hurting on the cost of running H1, these same people would be stupid to run in a series with even looser rules. For the people who want to build/race a Honda with 14:1 compression they can go out and have fun in the manner they wished, and maybe there are enough of these people to make a strong series.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Andrie &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">... I don't know why you said Grand Am has got it right. I don't enjoy watching Grand Am cause there are so many classes in one race, which is typical to any endurance series. ...</TD></TR></TABLE>

That would be three classes this past year. Two next season as SGS and GT are rolled together.

I make absolutely no comment on "us vs. them" issues, being less interested in that kind of thing than just about any racer I've ever met. I'm only interested in this example as it reflects a process that I've seen over, and over, and OVER since I worked my first road race 25 years ago.

I absolutely DO agree that the easiest rules to enforce are those that allow anything. That much is true.

K

 

The way the Honda-Cup rules have been constructed allows for a Challenge legal K-series car to be competitive in the Cup as well. Same goes for a 2.2 liter S2000 (although brakes and ECU would have to be swapped back to stock - maybe). I think the only cars that would have trouble transferring competitively would be the B-series cars (unless they were B16's).

I know that David Karner (2 wins this year), barring any major engine snafus, plans on trying to run some races in both series next year and I suspect that several other drivers will do the same. Then again, if you have the budget to develop an S2000 or K-series car, an extra race or two is probably less of a hardship anyways

SC