http://www.cybernationmotorspo...m=334

Btw I was being very sarcastic...you have to be very ballsy to make such claims like this.

 

what the heck!!?? how new is this?? Can anyone else confirm this?? sounds super duper!...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Noch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">what the heck!!?? how new is this?? Can anyone else confirm this?? sounds super duper!...</TD></TR></TABLE>

I got a slightly used bridge. $80 shipped.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Boostage &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">http://www.cybernationmotorspo...m=334

Btw I was being very sarcastic...you have to be very ballsy to make such claims like this.</TD></TR></TABLE>

As lofty as their claims are... the "Concept" is of course great. I have thought about it over and over again before the EI was ever released.

My question is, why is such a product so impossible to design?

 

Because what an EGT, O2, and Thermostat probe can't really tell you what is going on. They can just give you a good idea.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Freemantle &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Because what an EGT, O2, and Thermostat probe can't really tell you what is going on. They can just give you a good idea.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Of course.

However throw in a GOOD knock sensing system, some acceleration hardware and algorithm's, and a LOT of time programming and you may see some nice results.

I'd be interested to know the indepth hardware and software behind the EI to see how advanced it REALLY is!

 

i have been following their claims for awhile now. They say it rivals the Hondata Kpro.

In all honesty there is something about a system that adjusts things on the fly (as far as self tuning) that really scare me.

"Because what an EGT, O2, and Thermostat probe can't really tell you what is going on. They can just give you a good idea."

Freemantle said it best with his quote though. what happens when a wideband malfunctions and reads too rich? or a knock sensor goes bad?

i give it to them with all those claims

Im just waiting for someone local to come by with a gaurdian setup in their car. Once we strap it on the dyno we will see if all these claims are true.

 

a lil more info i found interesting. it works by intercepting signals??? like vafcs? id like to hear some other peoples opinions. especially the pgmfi crowd

http://www.cybernationmotorspo...=6441

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBurner

Before anyone else asks, how exactly is the guardian connected to the car? where in the car does the guardian go (i.e. does it go in the same place as our stock ECU)? i'm assuming all of the wires need to be run to various sensors (map sensor, o2 sensors, intake sensor, etc. etc.) and need to be soldered? can you tell us all of the sensors that this connects to?

thanks

Guardian is hooked up to the ECU wiring harness. Very similar to the Apexi and BMII setup and will be installed under the dash .

Yes the connections need to be soldered. The sensors we use are MAP, O2's, TPS, ECT, IAT.

I may have missed one but those are the main ones I can remember off the top of my head. I will post if I missed one.

 

cheap stuff

 

Sounds a lil too good to be true but i could be wrong. I would like to know more.

 

It would take NASA 10 years to program something like this....I like the idea but it would take the EI 1000's of hours to learn what is going on with your specific car. You just change injectors and don't tell the unit? This sounds like a passive device just like a knock sensor is...it can only fix things once they start breaking.

 

&lt;--- Gonna have to stick with my AEM

 

SOMONE TRY IT SO WE CAN ALL FIND OUT...I THINK YOU OF YOU GUYS SHOULD TAKE ONE FOR THE TEAM! haha (sry for the capps)

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 2000psi &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It would take NASA 10 years to program something like this....I like the idea but it would take the EI 1000's of hours to learn what is going on with your specific car. You just change injectors and don't tell the unit? This sounds like a passive device just like a knock sensor is...it can only fix things once they start breaking. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Its funny that you say that.

So based on what you said, you're telling me you can tune your engine right the first time?? BS! Tuning is an empirical procedure by which you learn and reprogram the ECU based on the results - is the EI any different ABSOLUTLY NOT!!! You think you can detect knock faster than a knock sensor? Probably not, but you're not tuning your car to its maximum potential unless you've tuned TO knock and backed it down from there - EXACTLY what the EI has the potential to do.

I'm not sideing with the EI I'm merely pointing out that your and everyone else's arguements are weak. Instead of everyone supporting the latest Hondata copycat - ineptune maybe they should look into something more revolutionary even IF its not the best product out there.

At least they made an attempt at something new instead of beating down a dead horse; that deserves credit in and of itself.

Oh and lastly - if you're not an electrical/computer engineer, you'll find a very hard time arguing the validity of the capabilities of an advanced engine management system.

I love when someone creates a product and everyone shoots it down. 6 months later they hear someone "important" is using it (say mase for example even though it'll probably never happen) and everyone in the H-T community jumps on the bandwagon.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by stizzit &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I love when someone creates a product and everyone shoots it down. 6 months later they hear someone "important" is using it (say mase for example even though it'll probably never happen) and everyone in the H-T community jumps on the bandwagon. </TD></TR></TABLE>


Well I'll jump on it if you jump first and let me know how it works out for you. were not shooting it down. Just too good to be true....errr is it...i'm still undecided on which side i'm gonna hold.

 

my engine management is done.

I would be more than happy to evaluate their product, however I'm not willing to pay for it at this point.

 

is that thing for real?

 

In not an Electrical Engineer, but what they are claiming sounds entirely feasible. It's what your stock OBDII ECU already does: Continuously tunes the timing and AFR to keep the engine running right under a myriad of conditions.

Of course, the OBDII ECU is limited to a simple +/- 20% short-term and long-term correction, and it sounds like this one is a little more adaptable.

I would love to give it a try. How much does it cost and where do I buy it?

 

the gaurdian is no where near a complete self tuning unit. infact if you ever change anything on your kit you will need to send it back in to be reflashed. they are all setup for specific pretuned applications based on turbo size along with injectors. this is the reason you cant even upgrade your injectors on your own. they also limit you from running higher boost levels because the boxes are only tuned to a certain amount of boost. otherwise you would be able to turn up the boost and the gaurdian would be able to compensate fuel wise on the fly. it is also wired into the pgmfi main relay which is how it shuts the car down if you over boost or it detects detonation. nothing special. in my opinion until i tear one apart ill most likely believe that it intercepts the signal going back to the ecu from the various sensors and feeds out its out predetermined output as far as a tune goes in order to control the engine. this also explains why they dont allow you to make changes for reasons relating to engine damage because the glorious black box i serious doubt can self tune. be serious guys im not knocking them down but please dont make ridiculous claims. thats probably a good reason the dont spend much time on this forum. there are way too many people who know better than the young teeny bopper owners of most of the DC5s on the road now-a-days

 

I wouldn't trust a robot to tune my car ...

 

Its sounds like what OEM engine managment ECUs do, but to a much larger extent.

I believe something like this could definatly be done. Not sure how well it would work on speed density cars like hondas however.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TurboSmart &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I wouldn't trust a robot to tune my car ...</TD></TR></TABLE>

LOL! What do you think a dynomometer and a wideband constitute? People aren't doing anything in the process, we're just plugging in numbers based on "robot's" readings and suggestions. Here's the deal:

The wideband gives you an air/fuel reading per rpm as well as MAP voltage, fuel injector load, EGT and all that other sensor-data. The dyno gives you a torque/rpm readout that the "tuner" looks at relative to the wideband's outputs. Then, based on what these machines have suggested, the "tuner" adjusts the inputs to the ECU as far as air/fuel ratio, different voltages and spark timing maps, attempting to get the most power without sacrificing safety.

Now the Guardian E.I. - supposedly - does the exact same thing, only instead of approximating spark maps and air/fuel as close as a human being can get them, it keeps them pegged at certain values of known safety and performance.

Now, I have utterly no idea as to the superiority of the Guardian, but from what I've read - testamonials and dynos involving it - it seems like the next stage of automotive computer control. People can talk all the **** in the world about it, but before we have a chance to evaluate it on a functional, personal level, it's all just the normal Honda-Tech hearsay.

And as to the people who say, "it sucks, you have to send it back in whenever you change injectors or boost or blah, blah, blah..." how is that any different than shelling out another $100-$300 to get retuned on a dyno with the new parameters? Answer: it's not.

So let's all stop bitching about this when we know absolutely nothing about it. I'm sure when manufacturers made the jump from Carburation to Electronic Fuel Injection the same arguements came up, yet now we're all driving Hondas with the capability to hit 10 second ET's and 130mph trap speeds. Look where all the bitching got them.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by technician 419 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the gaurdian is no where near a complete self tuning unit. infact if you ever change anything on your kit you will need to send it back in to be reflashed. they are all setup for specific pretuned applications based on turbo size along with injectors. this is the reason you cant even upgrade your injectors on your own. they also limit you from running higher boost levels because the boxes are only tuned to a certain amount of boost. otherwise you would be able to turn up the boost and the gaurdian would be able to compensate fuel wise on the fly. it is also wired into the pgmfi main relay which is how it shuts the car down if you over boost or it detects detonation. nothing special. in my opinion until i tear one apart ill most likely believe that it intercepts the signal going back to the ecu from the various sensors and feeds out its out predetermined output as far as a tune goes in order to control the engine. this also explains why they dont allow you to make changes for reasons relating to engine damage because the glorious black box i serious doubt can self tune. be serious guys im not knocking them down but please dont make ridiculous claims. thats probably a good reason the dont spend much time on this forum. there are way too many people who know better than the young teeny bopper owners of most of the DC5s on the road now-a-days</TD></TR></TABLE>

you quite obviously have no idea what you are talking about

the guardian IS a self-tuning unit...it is true that you need a different guardian for a stage 2 cybernation kit partialy because of a fuel return line

but if you sit in a car with a guardian and boost 6psi and then at the next stoplight, adjust your boost controller to 12psi, you will have the exact same tune

it is also quite a bit more than that...it is a safety device to keep your motor from blowing since 95+% of turbo'd motors blow because of rich/lean conditions (mostly lean)

you should probably read up on it a little bit more before you go and open your mouth about a product which you are obviously misinformed about

 

this unit is upgradable like a k-pro is...there is a computer hookup so when they come out with new versions you don't have to worry about it...there have also been talks of them coming out with a small display for the unit so you can monitor certain functions without requiring a laptop to be plugged in

edit: also http://forums.clubrsx.com/show...rdian


Modified by MrBurner at 2:17 AM 10/25/2004

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MrBurner &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
it is also quite a bit more than that...it is a safety device to keep your motor from blowing since 95+% of turbo'd motors blow because of rich/lean conditions (mostly lean)
</TD></TR></TABLE>

No, 95%+ of turbos die because of detonation. Detonation is mostly time related(though a rich mixture can surpress detonation somewhate). This system neglects ignition timing.