Looking to hear from owners/builders of built D-series. Problem is I'm looking for a very small percentile.

I am doing some paper engineering right now and seeking out real world experience.

The car I own right now is being prepared for an Improved Touring (H4 for those familiar with Honda Challenge) type class where basically stock sealed engines are required with your basic bolt-on's. My plans are to move up to a Hybrid style of class (H1) eventually. The thing is I have a very small percentile of people because it isn't exactly an all out type build as there are rules to follow.

Basically from the top of the block to the oil pan must be OEM Honda and the head is completely free. So from doing countless hours of research here's what I've come up with.

-I'd like to retain my D16A6 block because I already have it.
-Use B18A/B LS integra connecting rods and machine the larger ends and use ARP upgraded rod bolts. Anyone done this yet and run into any complications?
-Use P29 (USDM D16A1) pistons
-ARP head studs
-Balance and blueprint the entire rotating assembly
-I'd like to switch to a D16Z6 head
-Portflow or similar full headwork
-Crower Stage 3 race cam or similar
-Complete valve train upgrade (springs/retainers/guides/valves)
-Intake manifold. Can't use Skunk2/JG etc... Worth it to upgrade to Y8?

If my calculations are correct my piston to deck height should be 0.039685" with an A6 block, Z6 head, P29's stock bore, OEM headgasket and no mill etc... I should be a hair over 12:1 compression which is perfect. (12.043:1)


As far as other bolt-on's I am allowed an Iceman style ram air, I already have a Bisimoto header with basically 2.5" piping dumped after the front seat's. UR Ultra R pulleys and I am allowed Hondata so I can convert to OBD1 and run a P28 S100/200 for tuning.

Basically what I am trying to figure out is who out there is running a similar or built a similar set-up (probably not many) and what kind of numbers are you putting up?

Do you think 180whp+ is attainable on 100 octane with exactly what is listed tuned? If not then I'm just wasting my time pretty much. If so this may be a viable option, because I am allowed a HUGE weight advantage over the B-Series guys. Low HP Low weight is what makes the Honda's competitive anyways. So I'd like to have all my options covered. Plus building this D-Series would be a good bit cheaper then doing an entire B-Series swap plus building it.

Thanks for any incite fullness you can share.

 

Improved Touring as in ITA with SCCA?

If so, you need to reread the rules. Stock parts as in the ones that came in a D16A6. Built well you could see 123-125whp.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SMSP &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Improved Touring as in ITA with SCCA?

If so, you need to reread the rules. Stock parts as in the ones that came in a D16A6. Built well you could see 123-125whp.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Come on Dave atleast give me some credit. Did you read my post at all?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mr Hammond &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The car I own right now is being prepared for an Improved Touring (H4 for those familiar with Honda Challenge) type class where basically stock sealed engines are required with your basic bolt-on's. [b]My plans are to move up to a Hybrid style of class (H1) eventually. The thing is I have a very small percentile of people because it isn't exactly an all out type build as there are rules to follow.[b]</TD></TR></TABLE>

Sorry if it was unclear, but I meant the car is set-up for ITA/H4 now. I would EVENTUALLY like to move up to H1 etc... Just weighing out all my options.

 

I guess I should have figured not many replies.

 

i dont know much about racing in classes like that, but i do know that using the b18 rods is unnecessary in this case. the stock rods would have problem whatsoever handling the small amount of power you'd be putting out "all motor".

Using the b18 rods would be more of a hassle than anything, and an unnecessary hassle at that.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 91civicDXdude &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i dont know much about racing in classes like that, but i do know that using the b18 rods is unnecessary in this case. the stock rods would have problem whatsoever handling the small amount of power you'd be putting out "all motor".

Using the b18 rods would be more of a hassle than anything, and an unnecessary hassle at that.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah I talked about this with Wil @ Exospeed today for quite a while. He seems to think the D-Series rods would be strong enough.

My only thinking was yeah D-Series rods will be strong enough, I mean there's guys making 200+ boosted with no problems, but how many of these guys run for 25-30min stints 3-4 times a weekend at MAX RPM constantly ya know? I was just figuring stock LS rods would be CHEAP. I mean someone with a built engine would practically GIVE them away. As far as a hassle why? It takes the same if not less machining to get LS rods to work then upgrading to ARP rod bolts which I will do if I use D-Series rods or LS Rods. So that's not a big deal.

From what Wil tells me I might have my expectations a little to high on stock bore-stroke. I may have to look back and the rules and find out my limitations on switching to carbs from PGM-FI.

 

What is the weight of those LS rods compared to the stock ones? Honestly, you wouldn't need a bigger rod unless it's going to see boost or insanely high compression ratios.

If you're going to stay within stock bore/stroke, then you basically have only one way to make more power....RPMS!

 

i dont think youd make much more than 140-150whp.

 

Did do a car with a similar set up that you listed, it made 144hp at the wheels. That was on pump (94 oct.) and no management. Will recommend coating the pistons, they cracked on this setup. But we were still using the stock management no chip,and non vtec.


Modified by monster007 at 4:42 AM 10/14/2004


Modified by monster007 at 4:43 AM 10/14/2004

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by shrug &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i dont think youd make much more than 140-150whp.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well look at the small community of D-series fans gathering to share info.

on a vtec conversion setup, you can make more than 150whp for sure.
On a simple D16A6 setup, stock block, we can make 140-145whp already on just headwork, cams and bolt ons. Keep in mind thats non-vtec setup still. With higher compression and the VTEC function/head, you can get another 15-20hp to the wheels easily. Thats puts you in the range of 155-165whp.

Keep in mind this is still a simple setup. no crankwork, special bearings, still stock manifold or convert to carb setup. So theres still a bit more hp to be gained.

 

Yeah like I said yesterday Wil I need to look into Carbs perhaps and see what the rules state about them.

What is your take on the Y8? Worth it as a freebie over the Z6 intake manifold? The rules state I must use an OEM Honda manifold, BUT I can modify anyone to fit. So I have a b16a one lying around I'm going to mach up and see how different the bore spacing on the cylinders are as well as the bolt pattern. The bolt pattern I'm not worried about, it's the bore spacing of the cylinders I fear is different.

Guess we'll see what happens. Guess when it comes time to build I may just have to put my faith in Wil and the guys either way. :crosses fingers: that dual webers are allowed.

Thanks Wil and people that replied.

 

I don't see 180 whp without some sort of creative intake or ITB setup and higher than 13:1 compression...a stand alone will also be required, hondata would suffice.

Vs. the z6, the y8 head is a better head for you, IMO, since it 1. has better cc design (detonation resistant) with a quench that compliments the dome of the p29 pistons, plus it's smaller so you will be closer to 12.6:1 or so static CR. and 2. the offset 'swirl' promoting design of the ports really seems to help out midrange, which for you would be optimum considering the nature of this beast's use.

The LS connecting rods are unnecessary for NA applications. The d16a6/y7/y8/z6 rods are stout in stock form, however, with the conditions you will be subjecting these to, I would not gamble and shot-peen them, possibly cryo them, and also upgrade the rod bolts...Also, with the LS rods, they come with an .826 small bore which needs to be re-bushed to accomodate the smaller .747 wristpin of the p29's. Since the p29 are press-fit, this leaves the bushing vulnerable to rotating in it's bore...no good.

The y8 intake manifold is a nice piece vs. the rest of the d-series manifolds. Again, it promotes mid-highs..however, for your application, a stock manifold will be choking the engine, so I suggest either extrudehone or deep runner porting/ portmatching to get it to flow as much as possible. I also would use a 3" intake, and 70+mm throttle body....IMO.

http://www.d-series.org





Modified by builthatch at 2:25 PM 10/14/2004

 

You just stated the reason duel webers would not be allowed, you must use a honda oem manifold. There might be a mani from an older honda that used duel carbs that you could modify to fit but if somehow you did find one that would work it would probably choke the webers. The rules only allow minor port matching of the mani anyway.

Since the head is free, would using a worked A6 head with a really radical cam make more power? You could still convert to obd1, use a y8 mani, and have the management you want.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jimmy L &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You just stated the reason duel webers would not be allowed, you must use a honda oem manifold. There might be a mani from an older honda that used duel carbs that you could modify to fit but if somehow you did find one that would work it would probably choke the webers. The rules only allow minor port matching of the mani anyway.

Since the head is free, would using a worked A6 head with a really radical cam make more power? You could still convert to obd1, use a y8 mani, and have the management you want.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah I knew this in the back of my head, but I wanted to go back and read the Hybrid section of the rules just in case. After doing so, carbs are out.

As far as the manifold, Y8 will work. I can portmatch and only go 1" into the intake manifold and throttlebody has to be a stock Honda so I'll have to looking B/H series ones.

It's starting to look pretty bleak here. I mean I have no doubt it would be competitive, but no where near a front running car. I guess I'll just have to run H4 for an extra season and do a B-Series build in the meantime. Looks like at this point in time the weight differences aren't enough to counter balance power differences. :sigh:

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jimmy L &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Since the head is free, would using a worked A6 head with a really radical cam make more power? You could still convert to obd1, use a y8 mani, and have the management you want.</TD></TR></TABLE>

i learned by the master of sohc's bisi himself, the a6 head is the best flowing dseries head when worked. i think this is why he never went with a vtec head on his race car when he was still running the d15 block. also without the problems of vtec you wouldnt have much worry about cam and valve and piston clearance. imo i think the dual carbs, on a p29 piston a6 would be the way to go

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mr Hammond &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

It's starting to look pretty bleak here. I mean I have no doubt it would be competitive, but no where near a front running car. I guess I'll just have to run H4 for an extra season and do a B-Series build in the meantime. Looks like at this point in time the weight differences aren't enough to counter balance power differences. :sigh:</TD></TR></TABLE>


don't give up so soon, one's already been out, and the time's were competative.
the motor was still being tested, made a real 165hp 115tq to the wheels



1 28 Double R Racing 2:02.048 b18
2 87 Derek Stevens 2:03.116 k20
3 10 &gt;Bernardo Martinez &lt; 2:03.215 d16a6 block and head h1 specs

 

Hey Cali-Dude:

Two posts in one week... You might have an internet addiction problem.


Thawley

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by california dude &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


don't give up so soon, one's already been out, and the time's were competative.
the motor was still being tested, made a real 165hp 115tq to the wheels



1 28 Double R Racing 2:02.048 b18
2 87 Derek Stevens 2:03.116 k20
3 10 &gt;Bernardo Martinez &lt; 2:03.215 d16a6 block and head h1 specs
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Mr. Hammond, does this whp suggestion sound familiar??

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by california dude &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


don't give up so soon, one's already been out, and the time's were competative.
the motor was still being tested, made a real 165hp 115tq to the wheels



1 28 Double R Racing 2:02.048 b18
2 87 Derek Stevens 2:03.116 k20
3 10 &gt;Bernardo Martinez &lt; 2:03.215 d16a6 block and head h1 specs
</TD></TR></TABLE>

That's what I was hoping for. No one that I've found in ECHC or SEHC or MWHC was running a D-Series H1 specs. Good to see someone in WCHC being competitive with that set-up. I'll have to contact him and find out.

Edit: You don't know if he's on H-T by chance do you? What track was that at? I'd like to see how he fared on straighter higher hp tracks. Thanks.


Modified by Mr Hammond at 8:31 AM 10/15/2004

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by builthatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Mr. Hammond, does this whp suggestion sound familiar?? </TD></TR></TABLE>

What exactly do you mean by "whp suggestion". So you PM'd me and said you think i'd make 165whp. Ok so you guess'd and got fairly close with another H1 series build. Well if I'm only going to make 165whp and 115tq, hell I'll just do a bone stock JDM ITR swap and tune it with good bolt-on's and make 180whp and more wtq and have stock reliabiltiy and run 94octane instead of having a 12:1 compression big cammed engine that I'll spend just as much on building, plus spend $5.00 a gallon on 100 octane and have a much less stable build.

Don't get me wrong I'd really like to do the built D-Series, I'm just a little learey I guess about diving head first into the unknown. It's good to know someone else out there has done it. I still haven't given up yet.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mr Hammond &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">if I'm only going to make 165whp and 115tq, hell I'll just do a bone stock JDM ITR swap and tune it with good bolt-on's and make 180whp </TD></TR></TABLE>

Still, the D-series gets you a 200lb weight break: 2000lbs vs 2200lbs for an H1 with a B-series. Power to weight ratio will be roughly the same, but you get the better handling, lighter weight car. Might even be able to run 14" wheels, and smaller brakes, save some unsprung weight AND rotational mass. It might really kick some ***. All theoretical, of course, unless you try it.

Thawley -- because it's easier to spend your money than mine

 

OT here i had a Exospeed Stage 1 head, and the A6 Race cam attached to a stock A6 bottom end, and that thing pulled hard as hell. I'm assuming if you Auto x then you prob. have your car stripped. I would recomend using exospeed products for your build up, they are tested and do very well.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mr Hammond &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">12:1 compression big cammed engine that I'll spend just as much on building, plus spend $5.00 a gallon on 100 octane and have a much less stable build.</TD></TR></TABLE>
should cost you about half of a type r swap...it did for me...also, @ 12:1, you can run 94 octane. I do @ 12.3:1...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by builthatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
should cost you about half of a type r swap...it did for me...also, @ 12:1, you can run 94 octane. I do @ 12.3:1...</TD></TR></TABLE>

I guess I'll have to sit down and crunch some numbers.

I'm not saying I'll HAVE to run anything. **** I can pull a **** load of timing and run 87 if I wanted to. I'm saying "HAVE" to run 100 octane to take advantage of 12:1+ race head, because I am going to need every little bit know what I mean?

Gearing comes into play too. I plan on using the "good" ZC tranny w/ ATS final drive and Mugen LSD. We'll see how it compares to a B16 w/ ATS 4.92.

Thawley-

I agree with you on the power to weight which is what I'm shooting for. What I'm trying to figure is a built D at lets say 170whp @ 2000lbs vs a stock JDM ITR with ram air and SMSP dumped tuned should net me 190whp @ 2200lbs. (Grandpa is a good example hitting 190 on a stock internal USDM C5).

If I sit down and budget everything and it comes up WAY less then a JDM ITR swap and SMSP header then I will probably swing this way. If it's close I might lean towards stock reliability.

We'll see.

Or I might just say **** it and do the D-Series to be different and wind up dead last or kicking everyone's *** because I want to try something different. I've always been crazy like that. It's so much easier when the basis is already there to start.

I guess it would be good to get out there and compete with the H1 guys. Still don't see being competitive with the sponcered built H1 guys @ 2200lbs with 210-220whp B's, but whatdayado???

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mr Hammond &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Thawley-

If I sit down and budget everything and it comes up WAY less then a JDM ITR swap and SMSP header then I will probably swing this way. If it's close I might lean towards stock reliabiltiy.

We'll see.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Keep us posted on your findings. Pretty interesting stuff.

Thawley