I currently have Ground Control Coil Overs, with OTS Koni Yellows and an ITR rear sway bar on my GSR. For springs, I have the super soft "GC stock spring rates" (~380 F, 280R) on and I need some opinions on what I should upgrade to.

I know that OTS Konis start to max out at ~600/700 lb springs. With that in mind, what do people think about 500F and 600R? I am still a new road racer so I don't need those super still rates like 800F and 1200R.

Please express your opinions?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by VTECAcuraGSR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I am still a new road racer so I don't need those super still rates like 800F and 1200R.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Personally, I think it is best just to step up to a good suspension setup from day one. A good baseline setup for the Integra is 700-900 up front, 900-1200 rear. 300+ lbs bias front to rear minimum. 22-26mm rear bar, stock front bar.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SPiFF &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Personally, I think it is best just to step up to a good suspension setup from day one. A good baseline setup for the Integra is 700-900 up front, 900-1200 rear. 300+ lbs bias front to rear minimum. 22-26mm rear bar, stock front bar.</TD></TR></TABLE>

but these would be too high for the OTS koni sport yellows, correct?

 

I ran 500f/600r and 22mm for years when the car was still occassionally street driven. It was OK, but not great. Very significantly better than stock, but still had a pretty evil front tire killing push in anything longer than a Solo I session.

But what Zsolt says is dead on. Just bite the bullet and do things correctly right out of the box. Start out with 700 on the front and 900 on the back and work the rear up from there if you still need more rotation (or down if the rotation scares you).

And if you can't afford the $600ish to get those Konis properly shortened and rebuilt... Well, you probably shouldn't be road racing and DEFINATELY shouldn't be road racing a GSR. $600 is pretty much like buying a pack of Juicy Fruit in this sport.

 

I have an ITR and I am a rookie in ECHC. This is what I did:

I started with 10K (560lb) front and 12K (670lb) rear with 23mm rear bar and 22mm front bar (I think, whatever is stock on the ITR). This is very stable. I didn't want to deal with learning how to race and dealing with car control at the same time.

I am now moving onto 14K (780lb) front and 16K (900lb) rear with same roll bars as above. I will race with these for the next few races. At most, I may additional remove the front roll bar.

If I were you, I would email Phil Phillips (Maxx44 on HT) of http://www.philstireservice.com . He is a great driver and his GSR seems to be setup well. Also, I would email Jason Franza. He has an ITR, but it is basically very similar to the GSR.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by whereuat &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">but these would be too high for the OTS koni sport yellows, correct?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Correct. You could run up to 600# or so with them, but it is not ideal. Get the shocks re-valved and the front shortnended.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Start out with 700 on the front and 900 on the back and work the rear up from there if you still need more rotation (or down if the rotation scares you).</TD></TR></TABLE>

This setup works well and it easy to handle. I am running 650F/900R + 22mm bar right now. The car feels good, but still has too much push in low to medium speed turns. The fronts won't make it to the end of a long hard race. I will be on 700/1100 next year.

I might get flamed by those who really understand suspension setup, but I don't think it is the spring rate as much as the bias front to rear which is important. I bet 400/500, 800/900, 2000/2100 will be about the same in terms of looseness. The stiffer springs will give the car a better contact patch and much better feel. I think around 700 up front is about ideal for the DC2. You don't want too much spring (or rebound) up front to allow the fronts to stay planted.

If you don't want to start off with a too loose of a setup, bring the bias down a bit, say 650/800. Go up from there as needed.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SPiFF &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I might get flamed by those who really understand suspension setup, but I don't think it is the spring rate as much as the bias front to rear which is important. I bet 400/500, 800/900, 2000/2100 will be about the same in terms of looseness. The stiffer springs will give the car a better contact patch and much better feel. I think around 700 up front is about ideal for the DC2. You don't want too much spring (or rebound) up front to allow the fronts to stay planted.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I was under the same impression and believe you are correct. That is why in my change to higher rates, I kept the bias the same/similar. Once, I feel, I have advanced in my driving, then I will creep towards a higher spring rate in the rear.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by davidnyc &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I was under the same impression and believe you are correct. That is why in my change to higher rates, I kept the bias the same/similar. Once, I feel, I have advanced in my driving, then I will creep towards a higher spring rate in the rear.</TD></TR></TABLE>

It is similar, but a 2000# spring will transfer weight a lot quicker than a 500# springs, so you'll have less time to react before you get a panoramic view of the scenery around the track...

 

DavidNYC - It sounds like you and I are on the same page!

Scott - I can afford the $600 to get them shortened, etc... I was just curious if I can by myself some time with less spring while I am still learning that's all.

Other Integra owners want to weigh in?

 

For years in DEs I ran 375F/425R and a Progress 22mm rear bar. I thought that was good. Then I moved the 425s to the front and ran 600s in the back on OTS Konis. It was pretty good. For a while there the rear sway was installed incorrectly and was basically frozen solid. Car was wicked loose that way but I was the fastest I've ever been that way It was also quite awful to drive on the road.

Not too long ago I got the shocks revalved by our man CRX Lee for some quite stiff stuff, 600F, 1000R. Rather than get the shocks shortened I bought the Ground Control upper shock mount things. I absolutely love the car this way. It is not as violently loose as I thought it would be, and I'm sure a lot of that is in the shocks. 600lb rear springs was definitely pushing it on OTS Konis, especially three year old ones.

Ratcliffe apparently ran as wild as 700/1400 and was ridiculously fast, as long as he kept the thing on the track, which was sometimes a problem as he readily admits. In H3 car v2.0 for him, he went to 600/1000 and seems to like it quite well.

FWIW.

 

When I originally built my 1995 GSR I started with 800Fr and 1000 Rr. Since then I have tried up to 1000Fr and 1400Rr, both were way too stiff for Sebring and my shocks.

Since then I stay around the 800Fr and 1200 Rr depending on the track. There are some tracks where even the 1200 Rr is too much and hard to control.

I would really recommend against re-valving / shorthening a street shock. If you can afford it you should go wtih the Koni 3011 or the 28 series. When I built my car I bought the 3011 and now wish I had upgrading to the 28 series shocks. Remember you will be running against guys you spend $5k on shocks alone.

Also if you don't want to spend the money on test days learning how to adjust double adjustable shocks and what each setting does stay with the single adjustable shock. Double adjustable shocks can help you go 2 seconds faster or 2 seconds slower.

Scott Seck
#38 ITS GS-R

 

I run 850 front and 920 rear with a damn big rear sway bar. The car understeers some but I exited a turn basically off the throttle at RA (too high of a gear) and spun it so it does rotate some. If I could get more track time I would definitely drop the front rates and/or bump up the rears. My setup is a little difference as I run tender springs. What difference that makes... I don't know. For shocks I run the shocks from the H&R Type R road race coilovers. I like them a lot.

 

What kind of tires are you planning to use? Setups different for Slicks and Roadies... right?

 

For all who posted your spring rates, what kind or f/r camber are you running?

 

2.6f/2.0r

 

2.2f / 2.0r last I had it aligned. The front UCA swap adds some caster so I pick up a little bit of camber as I turn the wheel, which helps.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by krshultz &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">2.2f / 2.0r last I had it aligned. The front UCA swap adds some caster so I pick up a little bit of camber as I turn the wheel, which helps.</TD></TR></TABLE>

That trick can be done with aftermarket front UCAs like Skunk2 correct? thanks.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Vitt1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">That trick can be done with aftermarket front UCAs like Skunk2 correct? thanks.</TD></TR></TABLE>

No he swapped them from left to right. Stock Arms.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

No he swapped them from left to right. Stock Arms.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I see, thanks. Do you get the -2.2 degrees just by lowering the car, or by using kits like Ingalls?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Stock Arms.</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

lowering + the GC upper shock mounts for more shock travel.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by spsspeed &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">When I originally built my 1995 GSR I started with 800Fr and 1000 Rr. Since then I have tried up to 1000Fr and 1400Rr, both were way too stiff for Sebring and my shocks.

Since then I stay around the 800Fr and 1200 Rr depending on the track. There are some tracks where even the 1200 Rr is too much and hard to control.

I would really recommend against re-valving / shorthening a street shock. If you can afford it you should go wtih the Koni 3011 or the 28 series. When I built my car I bought the 3011 and now wish I had upgrading to the 28 series shocks. Remember you will be running against guys you spend $5k on shocks alone.

Also if you don't want to spend the money on test days learning how to adjust double adjustable shocks and what each setting does stay with the single adjustable shock. Double adjustable shocks can help you go 2 seconds faster or 2 seconds slower.

Scott Seck
#38 ITS GS-R</TD></TR></TABLE>

If I recall the new rules for IT next year allow for full coilovers. If that is correct does this change anything as far as the ideal shock and spring?

 

If you mean that they will allow threaded body shocks then you could get the 3012 which are the aluminium shocks with a threaded body. I think the 3011 come with a threaded body and Koni shaved it off for me and I am just using a threaded sleeve.

I also use a zero-rate helper spring which you can get from Eibach, seems to help the spring from moving around, then I use safety wire to tie the helper spring to the race spring as well.

CRX Lee should have all the info about shocks, he built mine for me and has rebuilt them a couple of times as well.

Scott Seck
#38 ITS GS-R

 

Why must Honda's in general run such huge spring rates to be fast? Also, how do these cars react on very bumpy tracks? Just curious..

 

I know it has to do with the motion ratio of the suspension and what spring rate the wheel really gets. I am sure that someone else can explain it alot better and I think this has been discussed before.

Other ITS car like RX-7 run in the spring rates near 300 lbs cause there motion ratio is diifferent and that is all they need to make the car work.

The bumpiest course that I run on is Sebring and you have to fine tune the shocks to handle the bumps but generally it is not too bad. if you up the spring rate or compression too much it will feel like your teeth are being smashed together and you are hurting your spline over the bumps; that is when you know that you went too far.

Scott Seck
#38 ITS GS-R