this is one of the worst days of my life right now....

I just finished the break in period of the newly installed b20v I had put into my car.

I spent 2 years learning, lurking, posting and gathering all information I needed to do a swap, from knowing nothing about Honda engines, etc...
I spent 5 months sourcing the parts for the b20v build
another 2-3 months searching for a shop with competence to complete the swap in my car.
I spent 2 months breaking the motor in, up to about ~ 750 miles, with three oil changes, and plenty of time learning to drive a stage two clutch
I spend 45 mins driving to a tuning shop
and they had the car for TWO HOURS, and absolutely BRICK my ******* motor.

RANT TIME

This was the shop that I was going to leave in charge of doing the d->b auto/manual swap into my EK hatch
I found a cheaper shop to install, so I obviously went with it.

around the time my break in period of 700 miles was over, I called this shop up asking if they could install my N2 cams (similar size to Skunk2Pro2 cams) in my b16 head.
"of course- those are perfect for your engine"
"could I get the swap + dyno tune?"
yes! YES you can

Hey can I give the tuner the manufacturer specs to avoid any clearance issues / piston slap?
"nah, itll be fine- we'll let you know if we need them"
okay, well can I be there, to answer any questions, and to see everything happening? I'm really curious / anxious..
"unfortunately, its a liability for you to be in the shop- you can watch out the window from upstairs"
they pull the GSR cams out.... put the GSC N2 cams in, do a valve adjustment

I sign the paperwork, write down an 8100 redline

waiting waiting waiting, in the wait room "**Vroom VROOM**" happy and nervous as can be, I see my car headed up to the dyno wheels.
fuel tables adjusted. the amazing sound of a loping b20v had me creaming my jeans....

adjusts a little more...... first pull.... 7600 rpm, unsure of the power
5-10 mins later.. second pull..... SCREAMS to 8866RPM- I actually vocally say "jesus Christ, don't!!" to myself.
5-10 mins later, hes rolling around 4500 rpm, adjusting some tables
takes a pull up to 8379rpm, and cuts the engine immediately.
I hear a laugh from the distance and a young 20 year old tech runs over and starts looking under the car and in the bay..... another tech looks under and looks inside.... 3 techs around my car

I knew at that moment I was fucked when the owner walks over and starts tapping his feet..... I cut my video short when he waves for me to come into the shop they said I cant be inside of.

walking down, I knew something was wrong. I see milky oil under the car.
they tell me they heard a noise and cut the car off.

pull the valve cover off, and it is noticed that two valves are pushed in way further than the others.
.......

this ended up being the results. Every master mechanic I have spoken to has said this was due to the fact they did not degree my camshafts when they installed them, and caused the following.
they accept no responsibility, and I will be getting an attorney involved, as they broke their contract, stating they will be performing the tests, around my parameters (being 8100 redline / safe daily driving tune)
again..... months and months of planning my very first build for "so called" professionals to blow it to **** in the span of two hours.
considering I contracted them to install my camshafts (with adjustable cam gears) and dyno tune the car,
I ask you..... Do they owe me a new motor, yes/No, and why / why not.

please don't mention the dyno liability release, because they broke their end of the deal, and I have video proof they took it Well over the redline I requested, and to 9000 rpm's instead

 

I spent the day speaking with the master mechanics / techs at a Honda dealership...
every single one of them said I am not at fault, as they did the install, and the owner said that "there was an installation error", when he installed the cams in the first place.

they want me to still pay $520.00 for the dyno time, installation of the camshafts and for removal of the head, for inspection.

 

So they admitted they were at fault? OR the dealer said that the tuning shop was at fault? If they are going to replace the motor, but still want to be paid for the dyno time, its probably worth paying the $500 to get a new motor. At least that's what it sounds like you are saying is an option.

 

Don't pay them ****, and keep your attorney involved. For them to not check P2V clearance or degree the cams is negligent, and it sounds like they blatantly ignored your requested top RPM.

Do they say they are ASE certified for their business? May want to test that claim (not that the ASE cert is hard to get, but this sounds like a shop that might not bother having all their employees go through it...)

Same question: Did they admit themselves they fucked up the cam install? Also, I'm pretty sure OP isn't saying they're offering to give him a fresh motor... I'm sure that's not the case. Sounds like they're trying to **** him over as hard as possible.

 

Couldn't do a 5spd swap correctly I doubt they know tuning...

 

sorry for the delay in response. i was working, and had a lot going through my head so i couldnt make it back on here last night....

so, basically, i talked to the owner of the company (this wasnt the company that did my full motor swap btw- just the camshaft swap / dynotune)
i asked the owner if the tech did a p2v clearance check. he said that it was done, and it was done 100% correctly, and that the tech has been building honda motors for 15 years and can do this in the dark

i spoke to the tech directly, who sent me a chronological order of everything he did. in the full two paragraphs he sent, nowhere did it say that he degreed the camshafts and checked for clearance "set crank to tdc, loosened tensioner, removed cams, installed new cams, adjusted valves (0.006in / 0.008 ex), put the valve cover back on, from there i installed my tuning ecu, started car, got it running. was was rather lopey and sounded healthy for the most part. i do a total of three WOT pulls on the dyno and a few part throttle pulls to get the fueling and timing right. during WOT pulls, nothing seemed out of the ordinary, except running slightly rich, which is how we start every tune. the exact reason as to what happened isnt able to be pinpointed. what we do see is that the valve head broke off in one of the cylinders- question is WHY? from my experience if the valve spring cannont support the cam lift, it wuold cause coil bind and basically bottom out the spring this in turn would cause the valve to hit the pistons and cause this type of situation. this is what i think happened."

again--- the owner said he checked for clearances..... really? i dont see that he clayed the motor, or degreed the adjustable cam gears.

he said he was using "unknown cam profiles" - when i EXPLICITLY asked the owner if i could give him the manufacturer specifications.
also, for the record.... the head was built and for these camshafts with supertech dual valve springs, titanium retainers, and new valves.
i had spoken with the tuner (who wrote my basemap which was perfect FOR 750 MILES) and he said that the springs i used

• Type: Dual Spring
• Press.Seat: 100 @33.5
• Max Lift: 13mm
• Coil Bind: 20.mm
• Rate: 12.20mm
• Retainer: RET-K20A2/T2
• Spring : SPR-H200DR

are WELL within the specs to use these cams

High lobe (IN/EX)
296/288 Duration
266/258@1mm Duration
12mm/11.5mm Peak valve lift
102/104 Center line


SO.... now i have contradicting statements (chat proof on facebook messenger) from the tech (described everything in order he did- nowhere did it say he adjusted the camshaft gears -aem truetimes-, or checked for clearances) and from the owner (said he did everything 100% correct and checked for P2V clearance)

i also have evidence that the tach was sent to 8866 rpm, well over 8100 rpms as stated in the contract, and the owner stated that his dyno is NOT calibrated, NOR was the ignition lead set up for RPM on the car "so there was no real way to see the true RPM"


________________________________

i think i may have a strong case for small claims court.

right now, im gathering recipts, item numbers, and bank statements for all of the funding i lost, building, assembling and installing this motor.

 

I maintain my previous statement. The shop was negligent and did not do their job properly. "Unknown profile" my ******* ***, GSC has their cam specs listed out everywhere, very easy to find...

That being said, I hate to say but I don't think you're going to come out of this with much to show for it...

Take as many photos, collect any data logs if possible (unlikely), and just prepare your case...

 

so, again, i do have videos of every pull, with the screen visible in each case. again, they refused to let me in the area, and i have contradicting statements from the owner and the tech/tuner who did the job. again, they did the install and said themselves "installation error" they are trying to place blame on the NEW supertech valvetrain, and not taking consideration of the clearances. i took this to professionals for a reason, and they didnt do what was necessary. the tuner from this website who made my basemap is willing to testify as a professional mechanic / tuner, as he does it for a living, and is saying this was pure negligence.

 

It appears that intake valves have made contact with at least three pistons in your top photo... the question is why ???

You stated that you have researched extensively about the processes required to effectively assemble an engine, and so I assume that this means that you are aware of what is necessary to properly set up your camshafts. First, one cannot effectively degree a set of camshafts on a "B" series engine IN THE CAR... the engine needs to be on an engine stand. In addition, you would have to mechanically "Lock" the rocker arms to utilize the VTEC lobes for the degreeing process. As for "claying" up the engine... this would require the complete removal of the cylinder head, clay placed in the valve reliefs of each piston, the engine re-assembled and then the cams/crankshaft are rotated at least two full revolutions and then the cylinder head is removed again to measure/examine the clay residue to verify proper clearance of each valve relief. A NEW head gasket would have to be installed during re-assembly. If none of these things were discussed by you and the shop, especially since you would have to supply additional parts... why didn't you stop them before a failure occurred ??? The over-rev isn't your problem... your problem began when the engine crossed over into VTEC.

The hard part for you in small claims will be proving that they claimed to degree the cams and clay up the engine... if you have no text/receipt stating this, it will be your word against theirs in court. The strength in their case will be that YOU supplied all parts and they installed them and attempted to tune the engine as you requested. I know this situation sucks... just be prepared to roll the dice on your chances of success in court... this will not be a slam dunk for you.

Good luck.

 

Another red flag...

NO professional Honda/Acura shop would remove your engine, degree your cams, clay your engine up, re assemble the engine and provide a head gasket, re-install the engine, top off the coolant and finally dyno tune your engine for $520.00. That is a "crack head" price for this level of work.

 

How's this???

the longer, detailed explanation is the tech who installed the cams, and attempted to tune the car

the shorter "confirmation that he did the work" is the owner, who wishes to not want to help / replace the motor.

you be the judge?


TUNER:


OWNER:


Think i have a chance, guys?

 

I don't know. They really should have checked the P2V clearance, but JR has a point... it would have been nice if you had evidence that you explicitly asked for that.

Either way, I'm sorry for what I'm sure is a crappy situation :/

 

Chance- I explicitly asked to give him the camshaft specs so we could check for piston to valve clearance because they are larger camshafts, in person. i was told "he does not need them, but we'll ask if we do"
also, im not sure if you saw the photos, but there is evidence right there they both contradicted each others statements as to making sure.

again, this was a BRAND new build- it ran absolutely fine for 750 miles, on GSR cams, and a basemap from a tuner, who told me 20 mins before it went on the dyno, that should they not have checked the clearances, the engine will be destroyed from contact with the valves.
also, they said i could not be with the tuner/tech while the car was in the shop, because i was a liability / theft prevention. All of the techs here at the dealership i work at, also believe this was fault of carelessness / trying to rush me out and not knowing any better.

"building hondas for 15 years" my ***. hes barely older than I am.

i need a few more opinions...

 

This isn't the shop that originally put the engine in right?

 

no, shinsen- this is a completely different shop.... this is a shop i was going to originally ask to install the motor, but they were charging 1500, over 600 for the swap

 

Were the pistons in the engine stock? From the pictures it kind of looks that way, but I'm not an expert.

The generally accepted consensus is that ITR / CTR cams are the biggest you can go with stock pistons without opening up the valve reliefs on the intake side. The intake valves on the VTEC head are 2mm (I think) larger in diameter than non VTEC heads.

Looking at the pictures you can see on the piston that is still intact the witness marks for the intake valves. Looks like lots of contact due to the larger cam.

 

sorry to hear about the shitty luck man.

Good observation.

 

DJackson- i think you are absolutely correct, and that is an amazing observation, which MAY even win this case.

all four cylinders are scored on the intake side, which is INDEED exactly why i asked the shop.

cam specs are
High lobe (IN/EX)
296/288 Duration
266/258@1mm Duration
12mm/11.5mm Peak valve lift
102/104 Center line

so yeah. they absolutely did NOT check the piston to valve clearance. i am going to bring this up with the shop

 

You bought the cams, you asked them to put them in. You didn't specifically ask for them to be degree'd (although if they're a shop worth their salt, they'd know this would need to be done)

The shop probably has a dyno clause somewhere that if your engine breaks on the dyno, they're not responsible.

They're putting fault on the valvetrain, not the cams, and correct me if I'm wrong, had the cams been too big, wouldn't you have seen damage on all four pistons? All four sets of valves?

You do have a lot of crud in all of the cylinders... Inspect all the valves and piston heads. What do you see?

Inspect your valvetrain, what do you find?

They have an out, and that is that they didn't 'build' the motor. You didn't stop them before they started up the car, and tell them to degree the cams before starting it up.

Fault is on both sides. The fact that they want you to pay for the labor up to the engine blowing, well..they're not wrong. Maybe you can work a deal that they knock off that labor the next time, but I feel you aren't going to be going back to that shop.

 

Sorry OP, you are **** out of luck here, legally. Unless you can work out a deal with the shop, which doesn’t sound likely. They’d have to be willing to admit they made a mistake.

This is the risk involved when modifying any engine, and why we don’t trust our cars in other peoples hands...

 

In cases like this, you MUST be able to prove negligence in order to win. According to you, the shop was obviously negligent in regards to the care they gave your car. Is your evidence enough to PROVE negligence in court...? Who knows. An attorney will be able to answer your questions.

 

I have GSC n1s. If the n2s are grounded like the n1s or even the t1s, then they would have been grounded to zero degrees. There are a dozen of other members in the FI section running the t1s. Willing to bet they were at tdc. I do realize the n2s are fairly bigger than the n1s. However the t1s are pretty close, with slightly less duration. And the t1s are able to be dropped in at tdc, aswell as the n1s.

Now the fact that you had a b20vtec setup with larger cams is all the more reason for the cams to be degreed in. Not 100% sure, but i thought ls/vtec and b20vtec should have the head degreed in even if running stock cams. Due to the timing events.

was the block or head milled at all.

 

It is common knowledge that LS/Vtec or CRVtec "Frankenstein" engine packages using stock pistons require the modification of the valve reliefs because the VTEC valves are 3mm larger in diameter than those found in non VTEC heads... even if you use B16A cams. Valve to piston contact can occur with even the mildest camshaft choice... especially if the head or block has been milled or a thinner than stock head gasket is used. Your issue here is not what may have been discussed verbally between yourself and the shop, but what you can prove in text, email or video. I am not suggesting that the shop did everything right... but this is not the complete issue. You have to prove that they negligently damaged your engine... and all that they have to prove is that there are possibilities in the original build that were the catalyst for the failure and it simply failed in their care. Your failure to modify the pistons to begin with is an error in your assembly, and thus, their potential savior. I wish you luck... I truly do... it sucks to have something like this happen. Best of luck sir.

 

so you let 2 INCOMPETENT shops mess with your car and now you're SOL. Good luck trying to get the (latest) shop to pay for damages/replacement of your engine setup. Another reason why I don't let anyone work on my cars.

 

That is not on your side. Bottom line is that the pistons were wrong. The impact mark on the piston is to the top edge of the valve pocket not the bottom. If it were improperly degreed, too much lift, spring failure, etc the valve would have hit the bottom of the pocket. Here instead there is a fundamental build error that the size of the valves don't match the pistons. When you bring your own parts to the build it is up to you to know that they will work together.