Thrust angle is coming in at 0.07° Before and -0.01° after.

So if I understand correctly it is that way becuase the tech never sets the rear toe the same on each side?

 

Well ideally you DO want it the same on both sides. But yeah .01° is pretty darn close, possibly as close as the tech could get it with the equipment they had, especially since Hondas with rear trailing arms are rather difficult to get accurate rear toe adjustments (loosen bolt, stick pry bar between trailing arm and frame, adjust, tighten bolt). It's not a turnbuckle-style adjustment like the front steering tie rods for adjusting toe.

 

toe is usually set in inches which is what i have been referring to this whole time. something like .05" in each side in the back....what that is in degrees i really have no idea

 

haha oh dang

Actually I think if you use inches, it can actually be different depending on overall tire diameter, since inches means the difference between tire edges at the forward side vs. the rear side of the tire, right? So a larger tire would have a larger toe reading in inches, even if it was actually the same angle.

Plus if you express toe in inches you usually say it's 1/16" toe in/out, 1/8" toe in/out, etc.

I just did a quick calculation. If you had 1/16" toe in (.06 inches) on a 16" wheel, that's about 0.22° toe in. So yeah I bet most machines couldn't even measure 5 hundredths of a degree of toe, much less the tech trying to adjust it to that exact amount using a big@$$ prybar.

So for the purposes of this thread, .05" is closest to 1/16" of toe, which is a common amount I've seen thrown around.

So .05" toe in on each side in the rear would be 0.1" total toe, or 1/8" total toe, which is another common reading I've seen.

 

exactly

actually, i wonder if this is why my settings change when i move from summer to snow tires. i have hankook icebears on right now in 205 50 15 but run yoke advan ad08's in the summer. when i switch between the two toe is always much different and i reset it.

 

Different sized wheels with those summer tires? How are you measuring toe? String method and measuring at front edge and back edge of rim?

Hey didn't your user name used to be idrivesideways or something?

 

Here are the specs and limits for a 96-00 Civic from my (EDM) books (car supplied manual and workshop manual) my EDM specs in bold EK 3/4d 2d:

spec [limits]

note angles are specified in degree-minutes (1°=60'), I added the degrees (what has been called 'degrees' here in this thread) for some values. I also added values in mm and inches. Toe-in(+), toe-out(-)

front:
camber:
0° [-1°,+1°] [-0°45', +0°45']

caster:
1°40' [0°40', 2°40']

toe:
+5' [+15', -5'] (minutes); +0.08° [+0.22°, -0.08] (degrees) [+20', -10'] [+0.30°, -0.15°]
+1mm [+3,-1]
+0.04inches [+0.12",-0.04"]

rear
camber:
-1° [-2°, 0°] [-1.45°, -0.55°]

toe:
+10' [+20', +5'] (minutes); +0.15° [+0.30°, +0.08°] (degrees)
+2mm [+4,+1]
+0.08inches [+0.16", +0.04"]


Everyone should be clear on what notation is used


So there are the following equalities (rounded):

0.04"(inches) = 0.08° (degrees) = 1mm = 0°05' (degree-minutes) (also written as 5')

As explained below these values differ somewhat (to be neglected) for different wheel sizes.

 

Note: this is the base theory, I do not post this as an actual means of measurement on the field.

 

Idrives eh racebum, I notice you seem to treat positive toe values as being toe-in as such: you write
This seems to be rather confusing, especially when using ànd the minus sign ànd the 'out' specification. Why not use negative toe values to refer to toe-in and positive toe values to refer to toe-out, as is usually done and also here in this thread?

I would suggest the following wording and notation:
Using the +/- signs and the added in/out info between brackets should leave no room for confusion.

 

lifetime at firestone. string method is useful in the garage for a quick setup but not like the laser at a real alignment rack

aaaand

yes it was, i just decided to change it

also - is out on all the new racks in here in the states and solid + values are in. even gran turismo 5 is this way

 

My paper from firestone reads this

FRONT
Camber -1.0 1.0
Caster 0.7 2.7
Toe -0.04 0.12


REAR
Camber -2.0 0.0
Toe 004 0.16

This is in degrees, per the firestone printout, as the specified Range.


EDIT- the alt+ 0176 does noithing, but works on my bothers computer, weird.

 

Every document I've ever read on alignment refers to positive toe as toe-in and negative toe as toe-out.

 

Noted. Hope this clears up possible confusion. I will edit my post supra accordingly.


These specs agree with mine.

However toe [-0.04, +0.12; +004, +0.16] is not in degrees but inches:
front toe spec in mm is [-1,+3], as 1inch=25.4mm this gives [-.04, +.12] in inches, for degrees see my post supra.

 

@racebum, how do your toe recommendations stand to the presence/absence of traction bars? (if TBs are to be considered a street option [ignorent on this])

 

Alright so I just got an alignment. 1st off the guy says I ran out of toe adjustment in the rear, and my caster is off side to side and out of spec on the one side. Is that a subframe shift or what? My before specs were so bad but heres how it ended up.

Front Left:
Camber -1*
Caster 2.9*
Toe 0.04*

Front Right:
Camber -0.9*
Caster 2.1*
Toe 0.04*

Rear Left:
Camber -0.9*
Toe 0.03*

Rear Right:
Camber -0.9*
Toe 0.03*

It seems to handle extremely well from what I have tested so far. Just a slight pull to the left probably because of the 0.1* camber different up front. LMK how everything else looks. Whats the effect of the caster being off?

 

Traction bars are simply an additional (or replacement, depending on the car) support for the suspension. Use standard alignment settings based on your needs (a drag car used on the street would want different values than a street car that happens to have TBs).


The cross camber won't cause a pull. The cross caster might though.

If the toe adjuster is at the edge of it's range, the car is either way too low, has the wrong parts on it, or has been in a rather serious wreck in the past.

 

Caster specs are [0.7 2.7] so your 2.1 is still good and the 2.9 doesn't hurt as for performance the more caster is the better.

So there's nothing bad for now but you might want to know the reason for your deviating figures as they may be a sign of some 'malfunction' somewhere.

Strange comment about the rear toe adjustment, see TunerN00b's comment.

Low/off-side-to-side gives bad turning response, had it myself but the car didn't pull though (with normal toe settings).

 

Actually those numbers look pretty good to me. A 0.8° caster difference shouldn't be THAT bad. Cross camber is way closer than it is on my car with OEM control arms. I'm guessing you have a camber kit installed to get it all that close? I probably would have dialed in a bit more front negative camber, maybe -1.5° to -1.75°

 

Yeah I wanted -1.2* camber up front but because I am not lowered that much he said he didnt know how much more camber I could pull. IDK since I wasnt allowed to watch in the shop as he adjusted everything I was rather out of the loop but happy that my toe was pretty good and the camber was close to what I wanted. My biggest concern is the cross caster. 0.8* difference is a lot IMO. The only thing I can think of is that we used the LCA's from the car I totaled when we put new bushings in maybe it was tweaked? Or the subframe was shifted and needs a tiny adjustment. As for the toe maxing out in the rear either the guy doesnt know what he is talking about or the Integra toe arm is different from a Civic toe arm. I am happy with the toe specs and if its maxed thats makes it easier for me to align it myself lol

 

92-95 Civic and 94-01 Integra "toe arm" is the same.
96-00 Civic is different though.

 

Actually I do wonder about the caster. While factory specs allow a range of +/- 1°, the factory spec is 1° 10', which makes the acceptable range 0° 10' to 2° 10' (or 0.16° to 2.16°). You're at the high end of the range on the front right, but you're nearly 1° past the range on the front left. That tells me that something has definitely been bent or tweaked on the front end of your suspension.

 

It feels good how it is, just the 0.8* difference worries me or makes me wonder. **** for all I know the UCA's could be flipped making me on the high end range of in spec/just out of spec. I'm wondering do I start replacing things, adjust the subframe slightly, leave it alone? I mean it definately wont make my tires wear having the difference but I like things symetrical. The 0.1* camber difference on the front bothers me lol.

 

Patrick refers to Integra specs.

Civic 96-00 caster spec is 1°40' [0°40', 2°40'] in degree-minutes; 1.66° [0.66°, 2.66°] in degrees.

 

Ah well I was posting Integra specs. Not sure about Civic specs. Wasn't sure what car FlewByU352 was driving.

 

Ah right indeed Flew should specify car model (I'll edit my post).