Oh Grumpy so you know about Freedomland?

I was born and raised in the "Valley", which is a neighborhood near where you raced. I had no idea you were from the Bronx like I. I was born in '72, so I didn't get to experience the times when there was nothing in that neighborhood. I can tell you, times have changed the place !!

Congrats on a great resume/bio

 

My girlfriend and her parents at the time lived at the Freedomland site and was bought out so Freedomland could be built. She moved to some place on Belmont Avenue and her Dad ran a Pizza shop. Some dude named Dion used to sing on the corner with some of his friends. She then moved to the neighborhood where I met her.

After Freedomland closed we used to sneek in and push the "Wild Mouse" type coach to the top of the hill or until we got tired, and ride it down. We also used to partake in liquid refreshment and hold drag races in the old parking lot, BACKWARDS. Cops NEVER bothered us.

It's a shame that youth is wasted on the young.

When we raced on Baychester Avenue the street was paved two lanes wide in the center and was crushed stone on the lanes on either side to the curb.

Not familiar with the location "Valley", Streets please....

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by IGGY &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Cliff notes please!


</TD></TR></TABLE>

"Done some racin'"

 

Well after most of the Italians moved out and Blacks moved in (if other people don't know, NYC is VERY VERY segregated by race, it is just how we live in NYC), there was an area around Haffen Park and the far borders (Eastchester Road, Gunhill Road, Bartow Ave, Boston Road) that is called the Valley, because in order to leave the area you must go up a hill, so it is in a Valley. Throughout the 70's to this day, the place have been called the Valley and guys formed a group (I won't call it a gang) called Valley Boys. Not sure if any of them are represented in the movie "The Warriors" which I think was filmed in Van Courtland Park.

 

Were practically neighbors. My sister dated a guy from Sexton Pl. by the tracks. My "club" was called the "Venturas". I still have the plaque we hung from our rear license plates. We hung out at Seton Falls Park on 233rd Street and Seton Avenue. We had about ten guys in the "club" all Chevrolets all convertibles a 56, 57, 58, 61, 63, 63, 64, 65.

My car was the fastest for a while till the 61 showed up with a 350HP 348CID with a 4.88 rear. I raced him after he took out the 4.88 and I cleaned his clock.

To put this all in perspective, this was the time when Bridgehampton was at it best, and I knew nothing about it. I would have crossed over in a second then if I knew what was going on. That's why these Hyperfests are so important to our sport to crossover the draggers.


Modified by Grumpy at 4:05 PM 3/22/2006


Modified by Grumpy at 4:05 PM 3/22/2006

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Chris F &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
*raises hand*

As a matter of fact...

This main hoop diagonal was deemed "illegal" at first glance by NASA-MW tech steward Kurt, due to not being as close to the floor as "practically" possible. After consideration of the driver seat position (for tall person) and rest of extra bracing, and discussion with regional director (Dave I presume) it declared mostly legal. Unfortunately there's a number of people still building cages like this. What's your call? Legal or illegal? Does it matter to you that there's a national race this year and everyone needs to be on the "same page"?


Second question: We/King Motorsports made a design compromise on the NASCAR bars due to not "necessarily" being able to cut body panels to make the bars straight back to the hoop without this 'S' bend. What's your call, is it legal to cut the body to get a straight angle to the rear hoop?
(view from front/top)


At this point, these are mostly academic questions, but others have been looking for a straight answer too

Thanks Grumpy!</TD></TR></TABLE>

I would not build the cage without the diagonal touching the floor plat. That little leg has no support and will be the first to give. Try running a bar from the floor where the dia is supposed to be to the middle of the low horizontal bar forming a triangle and the down behind the driver side the same way formind another triangle. See if you can get that accepted.

The S bend in the NASCAR bars also offers a stress point that weakens the structure. I have seen some cut the sheetmetal to make it work, without penalty. Also installing another vertical bar parallel to the main hoop could be used to "collect" the NASCAR bars after one bend. I believe there are other options before using an S bend.

Could some engineer types chime in here???????????????

 

NOTE TO ALL:

Don't let your cage maker have complete control of the design and installation of your cage. It is YOUR responsibilty to conform to the rules. If you think the design is not compliant, show him the rules. Insist on a legal cage.

If you expect "normal" NASCAR bars and the designer gets fancy, have hin discuss his plans BEFORE its welded into the car.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Grumpy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I would not build the cage without the diagonal touching the floor plat. That little leg has no support and will be the first to give. Try running a bar from the floor where the dia is supposed to be to the middle of the low horizontal bar forming a triangle and the down behind the driver side the same way formind another triangle. See if you can get that accepted.

The S bend in the NASCAR bars also offers a stress point that weakens the structure. I have seen some cut the sheetmetal to make it work, without penalty. Also installing another vertical bar parallel to the main hoop could be used to "collect" the NASCAR bars after one bend. I believe there are other options before using an S bend.

Could some engineer types chime in here???????????????</TD></TR></TABLE>

Hi Grumpy, I would chime in here with my background being a structural engineer. My job involves working on frame structures and require a good understanding on practicality and how a frame works. Hope I could provide some useful input.

First of all, I want to point out that the rollcage section of the CCR is written as a *general* guideline. Sometimes some things can't really be applied 100% to all types of cars (sedan, coupe, roadster, etc).

For a DC2 chassis (Chris F's car for example), the floor board is very flimsy. Without the bottom horizontal member, if the car gets T-boned, the floor board would very likely cripple and the mainhoop leg would bend inward. The door bars would also move inward as the mainhoop leg moves in. However, with the "optional" bottom horizontal member installed and welded, the load would be transferred to the exhaust tunnel and the "stepped up" area, which are the major backbone of a DC2 chassis.

So even though that bottom horizontal member was deemed "optional" according to the CCR, it actually becomes almost a required bar for the Civics and Integras. The CCR did not require this bar, my guess is that (correct me if I'm wrong) RWD cars have high tunnel, so making it impossible to run such a member without interrupting the mainhoop diagonal.

Take a look at the competition rollcage made by Mugen for the DC5 and EK FIA Group N and One Make race in Japan (pic taken from Kings):




Before everyone jumps in, let's just say that we are not here to discuss if the Mugen cages "look" safe or not without the harness bar and NASCAR door bars. The point I want to make is that they both show a bottom member tying into the exhaust tunnel and the rear "stepped up" area to support the bottom part of the mainhoop, instead of relying soley on the floor board connection.

Grumpy, does my analogy make sense to you? Anything you agree/disagree?

I have the resources to run computer analysis on frames. Below is an example of what I do. It is actually not difficult to prove that it is actually safer to run it the way Chris F has it rather than having the diagonal go all the way down to the floor board but without the bottom horizontal member.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Grumpy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Well I have been opening my big mouth on a lot of topics....</TD></TR></TABLE>
Thank you very much for continuing to be a part of the scene.

I think we're very lucky that you're a part of the Virginia gang, and we certainly rely on your common sense interpretation of the rules on many, many occasions.

 

It is actually not difficult to prove that it is actually safer to run it the way Chris F has it rather than having the diagonal go all the way down to the floor board but without the bottom horizontal member.


BUT, the diagional could have been put in first and the low horizontal put in later as you would install the high horizontal. Wouldn't than even be stronger.

What about my suggestion of triangleating the lower horizontal???
___ Would that strengthen the "little feet"???
!/\!


Comments on the S type NASCAR bars???

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Grumpy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Comments on the S type NASCAR bars???

</TD></TR></TABLE>

no engineer here but in a side impact were the second bend is (near the frame of the door) is right were the door bar's are going to fail, and the bars will be pushed into the driver.

If you look closely the other bends all have vertical stays, and other support, but not the "s" bend.

I don't like the 's' bend on driver side door bars at all, but if are in place. they need to be braced.


run a vertical bar from the "tunnel brace" to the "harness bar", from that run one horizontal bar to each of the "s" bends so that the load will be transfered to the stright bars and much stronger.

 

grumpy thats a very impressive resume

thanks for sharing it.

 

FWIW, my B-pilar was notched slightly to maintain the positive radius of the 'nascar' bars. Granted, they don't protrude out as far as some.
I've been tech'd by SCCA, NASA, and ICSCC, and never had a issue.


I have a similar design to Chris, but my cage builder (Racetech Fab) boxed the base of the main hoop.


Just my $.02

 

All this talk of the Bronx is making me homesick!!!!

Sedgwick Ave. & Van Cortlandt Park So. I lived right next to the Jerome Reservoir. I worked in the service dept. of the Toyota dealer next to Tracy Towers. We would take cars on "road test" up and down Mosholu Pkwy between Jerome Ave. and Henry Hudson Pkwy.

 

Hey Grumpy, thanks a lot for the responses.

I agree on the dislike of the bends in the NASCAR bars. But, there's nowhere that says you can cut sheetmetal besides going thru the firewall, so I didn't. Maybe if they were welded there you call it a "mounting point". Anyhow, I think there's been a couple different answers given by tech stewards and cage builders alike. King has some experience with their cages being put to use in cars that have been t-boned... so at least I give them some credit on that. Also we never took the OEM side impact beams out.

One thing that may not be obvious is that the cross-bar is stich welded along the frame all the way across. Also, the rear hool is welded along a plate most of the way up, and has plates on the rear and pass. side. My "intuition" as a non-mechanical engineer tells me that's not the weak point, with the combination of those two holding the cage up (or the car up) even if the bottom inch of that bar were missing.

Maybe this pic shows it better.



or one of these...
http://a0.cpimg.com/image/00/D...-.jpg
http://a8.cpimg.com/image/FE/D...-.jpg
http://a9.cpimg.com/image/FF/D...-.jpg

 

i don't see any thing worng with the main hoop and the diagnol. I have seen a integra get tboned at close to 60mph and there was no evidence anything failing at that point.


As far as the door bars, its your *** sitting in the driver seat, so as long as you feel it is "safe" then i don't see a problem with it. It is certianly 100 times better then the minimum allowed by nasa and scca, and will do a much better job at keeping you safe then the min would.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Grumpy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> BUT, the diagional could have been put in first and the low horizontal put in later as you would install the high horizontal. Wouldn't than even be stronger.

What about my suggestion of triangleating the lower horizontal???
___ Would that strengthen the "little feet"???
!/\!

Comments on the S type NASCAR bars???</TD></TR></TABLE>

Grumpy, yes the bottom horizontal could be interrupted with the diagonal going all the way down to the floor board; or beef up the little feet area by welding in (2) extra pieces to create a triangle below the bottom horizontal as you described.

But the question is, does that "little feet" really pose a problem that requires additional strengthening and detailing?

In a side impact scenario, the bottom horizontal bar would act as a strut and transfer the force directly into the backbone (exhaust tunnel + stepped up area). That little foot would serve little to no role in this load transferring system.

In an event of a rollover, the diagonal acts as a support to hold up the hoop so that it won't collapse onto the occupant's head. Assuming the diagonal is attached to the floor board level, the load would be transferred to that point and resolved into 2 components: a downward force and a horizontal force. The downward force would be resisted by the floor board and the mounting plates so that it won't get punched through. The horizontal force would be resisted by the floor board.

Now, with the diagonal bottom mounting point being moved up several inches, everything stays the same, except that the horizontal force is now being resisted by the bending strength of the mainhoop leg = bad, very bad. That's where the bottom horizontal comes into play. With the bottom horizontal bar, the horizontal force would now be transferred by this bar into the back bone of the chassis, which serves the same purpose (but stronger) as the floor board.

I wish we could sit down and go through the different scenarios with a pen and paper. It is very difficult to explain the load path by using the keyboard alone. If anything I wrote above is not clear, please let me know and I would try to find different ways to address it (sketches and scanner).

My suggestion for inspecting a cage on this particular issue is, if the diagonal is mounted (I would throw in a magic number) 4" above the floor board, a bottom horizontal bar must be used.

The S bend in the door bar, this is a more difficult issue to analyze. I can't give a straight answer to this. Whenever bends occur within a relatively short distance, the analysis gets a lot more complicated. But what I can say is, the bend radii looks gradual enough, and they aren't really increasing any moment arms should a car hits it. So I guess it is up to the individual inspector and Chris himself to determine if it is safe.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Wai &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The S bend in the door bar, this is a more difficult issue to analyze. I can't give a straight answer to this. Whenever bends occur within a relatively short distance, the analysis gets a lot more complicated. But what I can say is, the bend radii looks gradual enough, and they aren't really increasing any moment arms should a car hits it. So I guess it is up to the individual inspector and Chris himself to determine if it is safe.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Hey Grumpy..

The NASA CCR on NASCAR bars is weak. It references the NASCAR rulebook, which is not publically available. And it's not clear what you can do in terms of invasive chassis cutting to fit things like *proper* NASCAR bars.

I don't know jack about rulebooks, I'm not trying to pretend to, maybe I need to be more common-sensical about it. I figured since you had your name in the rulebook, you might appreciate the feedback

But,

To prkiller it was obvious that the intent of the rule was to allow some cutting to get a straigher shot for the NASCAR bars. I don't read it that way, but, again, common sense fails me sometimes.

http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=7402
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1508273

 

With the full rollcage in the B pillar seems only to hold the door closed. On a side or top impact the sheetmetal will move to the rollcage.

I guess what I am saying is the car seems just as strong with the B pillar notched.

As far as the S NASCAR, those are not required, so its your personal preference, I will take this discussiob to the top for clarification.

 

YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;

The NASA rules will be changed to allow the B pillar to be modified for better alignment of the NASCAR bars to the main hoop. Taking advantage like cutting out too much or stitch welding to the B piller will be penalized.

S NASCAR bars will be discouraged and probably eventually not allowed.

You asked, we modifyed the rules, you gotta love NASA.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Solo2Cvc &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">All this talk of the Bronx is making me homesick!!!!

Sedgwick Ave. & Van Cortlandt Park So. I lived right next to the Jerome Reservoir. I worked in the service dept. of the Toyota dealer next to Tracy Towers. We would take cars on "road test" up and down Mosholu Pkwy between Jerome Ave. and Henry Hudson Pkwy.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Oh, man can't forget those connecting roads. What about "action, traction Bailey Avenue"???

 

Based on your new picture showing the way the "little feet" are attached, and the discussions about the lower horizontal, I see no problem with the diagional attachment. If someone takes issue with it, I will argue in your defense for you.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Grumpy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;

The NASA rules will be changed to allow the B pillar to be modified for better alignment of the NASCAR bars to the main hoop. Taking advantage like cutting out too much or stitch welding to the B piller will be penalized.

S NASCAR bars will be discouraged and probably eventually not allowed.

You asked, we modifyed the rules, you gotta love NASA.</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Solo2Cvc &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> I lived right next to the Jerome Reservoir.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I got a great street racing story about racing next to the reservoir. Its long. Do you want to hear it??????

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Grumpy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I got a great street racing story about racing next to the reservoir. Its long. Do you want to hear it??????</TD></TR></TABLE>

Do tell.