I will be using 8041 fronts with 8610/11's in the rear.

Is it worth running the doubles if they are only going to be in the back? Save the money and later have all 4 made double at their first rebuild?

I thought there would be lots of talk on this but search got my me nothing until a short thread in '04.

 

First off, I don't trust Koni's adjustable dampers. I know they are an easy, cheap option, but honestly, if you're hard bent on retaining an adjustable aspect to your damper package, save your pennies and get a real set (KW, AST, etc).

I don't know your experience level, but the double adjustable aspect of any damper package is only as good enough as your knowledge on how to adjust them. There aren't any books good enough to tell you how to do this but reading never hurts. There are a number of options, but just grab one and learn what low speed, high speed, compression, and rebound means, and put it down. You need to just try it. If you really want to learn how to set up dampers, buy them, and do some "sweeps". Start low, and try a bunch of combinations, creeping higher in compression and rebound, always trying to maintain an understanding on what is happening and why.

 

Lol Matt the rest of konis line up isn't as bad as what you guys experience...

 

In a simple answer:

Always.

 

well.. I like what both of you say.
I am a control freak and have done literally everything on my car but welding and engine machine work.
I absolutely would tweak on and learn the shocks. On the other hand, I will be new on the track and honestly wouldn't bother with the shocks if I didn't have to. Only that I have Tokico blues + 1.3" eibachs (sports?) with a cut coil for 1.7ish total drop. I have minimal header clearance after the swap and way too soft springs.
So I am looking to do this the best way to begin. Once I get the car solid I will be on the track with the intention of buying nothing else for a while.

Another $240 for the 8611's.. vs much needed bushings all around.
Well, I guess I will wait for a package price. I pm'd THM and waiting to hear back.

 

Get rid of your Long Beach lowering kit and just get something like a KW that is valved pretty good for your application. No need to go nuts, just a V1. They work. Period.

Get out there and DRIVE.

P.S. The preceding was a drunk post. F**k Delta. F**k Minneapolis.

 

Assuming the bushings that are there right now are still in tact and not completely disintegrated then you will find more time with better shocks that are appropriately tuned to your setup then will with new bushings.

Bushings only changed my "feel", they didn't find me time, only peace of mind. YMMV.

 

THM pm'd some blanket quote for Koni yellows, so that was a waste. Will have to call them when I get a chance.

As for bushings, they are original which means they are ancient. The wishbone bushing is especially squished, but none are cracked/split so bad as to move freely. I only worry that the car has sat for 6 years and I believe they will give out quickly once I hit the track.


Annnnndddd.. after all this I got measurements figured and I have to use the 8611 anyway, the longest one. The 8610's only have two options.

 

When you get your Koni's back make sure to ask for a force/displacement graph so you can see for yourself the hysterisis even at lower settings.

 

The only thing that will accomplish is to make him feel bad.

 

...yeah, and wish for some REAL dampers... friggin' Koni.

 

friggin' cash

 

I'm with this guy.

Not everyone has $4k to drop on some exotic remote reservoir whizzbangs. Driving is the most important thing, spend that money on track time.

When you say "save your pennies" are you talking about several thousand pennies? If I can get shorten, re-valved, double adj konis for around $1000, how much MORE can I expect to pay for the equivalent KW or AST?

I can't find an AST application for Honda (don't really know where to look) and the cheapest KW shocks I found (Variant 1) are $1275.00 and aren't adjustable.

It looks like Koni is a damn fine option! I'd rather spend those extra $$ I save on entry fees and fuel... aka: Track time

 

The thing is, it's like saying my $30 Red Ryder is a good investment compared to a Barret 50-cal. Yes the Red Ryder has a few more rounds on board, but.......

Honestly, after my experiences with Koni "adjustables", I'd say you're better with a V1 KW or saving some cash for the V2/V3 than wasting money on the Koni. If you're going to buy something, but something worth it a change from stock. You might find small performance gains with a Koni package, but you won't likely know why. The KW V1's really are valved to match their spring rates and I'd trust them 1000x more than any Koni product currently made.

There's a reason why nobody (including anyone with $1 in their pocket in the former Koni Challenge) uses Koni dampers on real-life race cars. Even budget classes seem to move to KW/AST.

 

Your comparison of the Red Ryder and Barret 50-cal is nothing more than hyperbole and you would have to agree clearly exaggerated (drastically so) to prove a point. I politely disagree.

I'll be fair though, I haven't raced on KW's (always up to try it though) but I have set a track record (racing in ITA) on blown shocks so I put more value on track time and drivers skill.

This bugged me though...
You and I have a different version of "budget". If the price of AST's are in your budget... you're a budget racer.

Nobody I race with (in class) has switched to KW or AST yet. I've seen just about every damper under the sun being used during an event but amongst us "budget" guys I've never seen KW or AST. I haven't seen underneath EVERY car though so I won't be 100% definitive on that statement.

I just think you're unfairly denouncing Koni's. It's like saying, "Don't get that crap, get the ones that are 3x more expensive, you'll like them better!"... Well no sh**!

 

I see what you're saying, but you haven't seen the data sheets I have. I guess if there is absolutely no way to afford anything but Koni, then sure, they are actually the best you can do. All things equal, the same brilliant driver would go faster on KW/AST/Moton/Ohlin/Penske than Koni. If it is at all possible to save up (technically twice as long...) to get a KW damper set, then it's worth it in my opinion.

What I was saying was that even budget teams in Continental Challenge, now that we're not required to use them, have nearly all moved away from the Koni shocks. This has to say something. Given the option, they opted out. When you're whole car costs $2000 it doesn't make sense to get Motons, but if you're spending time and money and inquiries on figuring out the best option, Koni isn't it.

 

Are you comparing Koni Sport or RACE dampers to KW and AST? If so, that's a rather unfair comparison. A street derived twin-tube damper vs. a "race" oriented damper. The Koni 28s are a really nice damper, so I'd love to know actual details on why you think the KW and AST are better, rather than just an opinion.

FWIW, AST has a pretty damn good contingency program. They give drivers money just for running their stickers, so the number of drivers that are on AST is going to be high because if all other factors are equal, run the damper that might win you some money. I don't know anything about KW.

 

I am comparing Koni to anything else. Just because a product is cheaper doesn't mean it's a good option.

I've run Koni/Continental Challenge for 3 years now. Last year our Stevenson Motorsport Chevrolet Camaro was running Koni dampers. We constantly struggled with issues dealing with the non-adjustable high-speed setting not following the low-speed adjustments as well as intangible changes based on adjustments made at the damper. This is to say that when we turned the ***** (read: pretty much as many clicks as we'd like) there would be very little change to the car's handling. We returned these dampers to Koni a number of times, they always returned them saying everything was as it should be. The team I was on previously would take them apart CONSTANTLY trying to get them to do what we wanted since the damper's adjustable features were so poor.

This year in the Camaro, we just switched to AST. On the first test the car picked up something like half a second on a random setup with the new dampers on a very rough track. At Daytona this year, we beat the Camaro's qualifying time by over a second (which was one of the biggest increases on the same car in the field). Notable changes were that the car would dramatically change based on adjustments made at the damper and the high-speed damping follows the low-speed setting quite well. The AST product just comes out of the box working better than the Koni stuff. The AST contingency program is identical to the current Koni contingency program-- $250 for first place. When a set of wheels for our Camaro runs us $4000, do you really think we care about $250?

I've used KW products a number of times. Everything down to their V1 is fundamentally well sorted. When they say that their dampers are valved well for the spring supplied, they mean it. It has no bouncing, no jouncing, and no odd vibrations. Not only that, but at least on the application I drove (a 2009 Audi S5) the dampers seemed to help the car in the places that were needed from a stock package. I've never played with their V2 stuff. Their V3 has a bit too fine an adjustment between clicks for my liking, but at least the change from full soft to full stiff acts as you'd expect (996 Porsche Turbo).

To put a dollar sign on those options, the Koni 28 runs about $4000 per set (double adjustable) and doesn't seem to include springs. The AST stuff runs about the same for a similar setup. The KW Variant 3 runs between $1900 and $4000 depending on your application, is also double adjustable, and includes springs.

I don't know what anybody has been looking at, but on Google product search I typed in "Koni 'Double Adjustable'" and found the cheapest true double adjustable damper to be the 8611 which runs about $300 each. $1200 for a set with no springs and no ride height adjustability? You can get a KW V2 (single adjustable, likely works still better than Koni double adjustable) with springs and ride adjustment capability for about the same price.

 

Those are all good points and because of them I've been enjoying researching and learning about other options.
My thoughts:

Just played around on KW's website using my own 1991 CRX si. The Variant 3 (double adj, after all, isn't that what we're talking about?) are $1895.00.

They allow for infinite rebound adj and ONLY low speed Compression.

They come with.... one spring. Why I point this out is that with the Koni race/Ground Control setup I can swap springs very easily. Around here changing springs for a certain track can mean a second in your lap time. Some tracks like a softer setup, other like a very stiff setup so Double Adj is very important in this scenario and GC/Eibach springs are a dime a dozen (metaphorically). I can run 600f/750r springs one weekend if that's what that track likes and then 800/1000 the next at another track and double adjustable is the way to go. Single is not, especially if my shocks were designed for only 1 spring rate like it seems the V1 or V2 are. I also have no idea if those V3's are short enough for a race lowered Honda.

The AST program seems appealing but do they have Honda applications? After all, night is running a Honda and so am I for that matter. I would REALLY like to run a shock were I got paid for just running a sticker and winning.

Another thought... Perhaps Koni 8041's are more effective on cars that are under 3000lbs?

 

My car is under 3000 lbs, and I wouldn't call the 8041's particularly "effective". The main thing that needs adjusting in order to match a spring rate is low speed rebound, which the KW does do.

Also, the KW low speed compression adjuster actually changes the slope of the low speed compression, which is more useful than Koni's design on their twin tubes, which only changes the knee point. I have heard that the 3011 Koni's only adjust the high speed compression, also not that useful. U should look up the full sweep dyno plots of the shocks ur interested in.

 

Ok, I've been following you two, I just haven't felt there was anything worth adding back into the conversation yet.

I do acknowledge Bell's (sorry, I don't know names here yet) experience and credibility in this and I would seriously consider the KW's. But, like rice, after researching them after Bell's original reply here I was a bit turned off by their recommendation of not changing springs and that some V3's come with progressive springs (I did not see it noted which do/don't). I'm sure you can get/pick whatever you like, I would question these on the track. I can assume they want you to stick to exactly their numbers for judging their product and there is a range of spring rates they will take, but they need to say that. I also can find nothing about rebuilds.

I'm prepared to spend up to $2000 for this and it goes without saying my biggest issue is the rear struts. Is there someone I can work with at KW to put together something that isn't a 'kit'?
I can run EF fronts with a top hat (surprisingly enough, my stocks are shorter than EF stocks) and I need a strut body that can use with/adapted for a pinch bolt mount, unlike all current struts that use 2 bolts through the side.



Rice, for your sub-3000 lbs comment, my car is just over the heavier CRX's. 2293 curb weight, and I expect easily less than 2100 lbs with me.



edit: dammit, beanbag beat my reply. Babylon 5 going on netflix and sat here for 20 min before submitting, but that answers the weight I guess.

 

The KW is a coilover and they do offer a number of spring options. You can also go to allsprings.com and get the right diameter if they're not the same as Eibach/H&R. I have a contact with KW Europe that can configure any kit to your liking. The only KW I'd worry about swapping springs on would be the V1 since all the valving is aimed at a specific spring frequency.

The AST option requires you to call them and get kits priced. They do have Honda options, just not many. They can probably configure them however you want with the eyes and mounts made for your specific application.

 

Well I just edited it in, but you had already replied. I don't see anything about KW rebuilds?
How much lower do you guys typically run for HC/NASA racing? The KW's say 2.1 - 3.3" drop.. that is a lot.


And I am quite sure AST will be out of my range, although quite sexy.
oh.. there it is. Civic apps - 4100 or 5300. $2600 or $6300

 

KW Variant 3's have to be the best deal going in top quality double adjustables at the moment at under $1900. KW Variant series are sold as performance road suspensions. If budget is larger, then one could consider the KW Race Suspension Kit, Competition 2A series, which are also double adjustable. They make some for multiple Honda/Acura models:
http://www.kw-suspension.com/pdf/kw_racing_catalog.pdf

 

On a quick note.

Here in Europe (don't know for the US) KW is a common product.

Using them as a real (not street) performance product seems to me very unpractical and question-raising: they feature progressive springs (the Var#, only the 3 has F linears (EK)) with upper (top hat) and lower perch diff diameters so swapping on other - lineair - springs would require different perches. Plus there is the Q whether their valving would accomodate the diff springrates - let alone the possible large diff street/track rates.

To my knowledge the Var# are not offered with a choice of rates, not are the default rates of the Vars communicated. Custom work appears to be only for real professionals.