So with rr98itr's post....when do you start to change the car and not the driver?

When do you think you as a driver are at the limit of the vehicle? What do you change to go faster?

Do you change suspension?
Go with a wider tire?
Get a new faster car?

Just curious as to others thoughts

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chad &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Just curious as to others thoughts</TD></TR></TABLE>

My thoughts are that I can't believe you wrecked that beautiful car in just one day on the track. Shame on you, Chadley

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jason Franza &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

My thoughts are that I can't believe you wrecked that beautiful car in just one day on the track. Shame on you, Chadley </TD></TR></TABLE>


it was day 2......and what can i say.....i haven't met a tirewall i haven't liked!!!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chad &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
what can i say.....i haven't met a tirewall i haven't liked!!!
</TD></TR></TABLE>

lol sorta...

 

driver = infinitely adjustable.
car = adjustable to suit the situation (track).

if you don't change the car... how do you know if it/you could be faster?
change has to be made in order to progress.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Willard &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
if you don't change the car... how do you know if it/you could be faster?
change has to be made in order to progress.</TD></TR></TABLE>


but how??

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chad &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">but how??</TD></TR></TABLE>
test sessions.

-shock compression/rebound settings
-shock preload
-tire pressures (checking temps)
-toe
-camber
-corner weight changes
-swaybar settings

 

Assuming your current setup is, at the very least, competent...

If you are making mistakes, wrecking cars, throwing away races due to ill advised moves, and are inconsistent as hell... Forget the car and use your budget to get your *** in the seat as much as possible. Improving a car that you aren't driving very well in the first place is kind of silly.
JMO of course.

 

I'm not really an authority on the topic or anything, but when changing the car, I definitely preferred suspension and brakes before any engine modification. That seems more right as well, as on any track the biggest difference in performance will most likely show with handling as opposed to outright power, in my limited experience anyway.

 

Chad, why bother racing? Just follow that *** Scott's path, spend a bunch of money, race a couple times a year and post 8 thousand posts with Thesaurus in hand, trying to sound like the MA or PHD he isn't, like a narcissistic *** Andy Rooney hybrid Bob Dole and impress newbie ricer ***** with his knowledge or lack thereof.

Chris

P.S. Delete away mods. Honda-tech hates people that spout the truth. And you know it.

 

Uhhh.... back on topic...

I wouldn't change anything until I was turning consistent lap times.

Then, I'd take an instructor out and see if they had suggestions for me, the driver.

Then, I might let soembody fast take my car out alone and see if they have any suggestions for the car.

Then you start with the obvious stuff, like tire pressures and alignment. If that doesn't result in any gains, then try shock settings. Then, consider spring rates or swaybars or other expensive stuff.

As for engines and power, I'd leave it stock (or minimum prep for class) until it blew. Whenever the first opportunity for a rebuild came along, I'd send it to somebody who had a clue (b/c I don't).

 

I don't think there are many of us in here that are driving at the limit of our cars. No matter how quick of a learner we are, I think it takes years upon years upon years to get the best we can in a specific vehicle. Now that being said, that doesn't mean one shouldn't continually tinker with the car to improve it. My goal is not to be the fastest person on the track, just the fastest in my particular class. A faster car or super-ridiculous modifications are a step back IMO. Putting yourself in someone else's car or someone else in your car is always a good indicator of how you're actually driving it.

 

I forgot to add "when you can consistently manage race traffic without significantly losing time." Judging from the VIR HC vs. 944 posts, theres a bunch of HC guys that need to work on this.

I know what you're thinking... "But they were blocking the whole race track."
Yeah, OK, you think that now. But when you get really good it won't matter. How many people here watched Puckett at Road Atlanta last month sharing the track with a WHOLE BUNCH of cars 10 or more seconds slower than he was??? Was it slowing him down at all??? (pssst... the answer is "no").

If your car is so much faster than lapped traffic that you catch them that easily, passing them should be just as easy. It should effect your race very little, if any. IF the other cars were plugging up the track sooooo bad that, no matter what your best effort, you couldn't get through them cleanly. Thats a matter for race control and they *should* be handling it. But my bet is that its 90% driver.

Its easy to improve a car, much harder to improve the most important component of that car.

 

I asked this question and got equally disparate thoughts about a year or so ago.

I would suggest that if your lap times and results are consistent, but consistently unsatisfactory, regardless of changes to your driving, it's time to look at the car. ?Sort of like when an athlete plateaus...they change their workout routine.

Willard's right - if you're slow, making changes can't hurt. Just do them one at a time...a wholesale change like "a new suspension" or "a new car" doesn't tell you much and you will likely fall back into the same rut you're trying to climb out of...only with less money in your pocket.

 

Considering we will never top out in as much as we will always learn and improve, might as well be willing to fiddle with the car from day one. One thing I wished we had learned better in high p. driver schools (prior to going racing) was how to effectively change the car. I don't see why you should be fearful to change the car to try make yourself feel more confident or faster or something of the like.

 

We may be talking about two different animals.
I'm not talking about swaybar adjustments, tire pressures and the like. We all do those all the time.

I'm talking about plunking down a boatload of cash for a new set of motons, or buying a new "faster" car, or even changing the brand/size of tires you use to more expensive "faster" ones.

My point being that all of this is like buying a viagra prescription for a eunoch if the driver is well distanced from consistently performing in the car. Constant changes to equipment might even *hurt* a driver's progress. How can you tell if changes in performance (good or bad) are the driver or the new $5000 dampers???

Again, this is assuming that the current set-up is competent. Meaning wearing tires reasonably well, comfortable to drive, and responsive to input.

 

Then I think I must have misunderstood (over-simplified) Chad's question. But in some sense, if you have maxed out what you can do w/ a set of Tokicos (adjustablity wise) then a more adjustable shock is still in line with what I am thinking. A lot of guys buy an OTS KONI Yellow and run them for a year only to send them in to be revalved/shortened per their needs later - is this not essentially very similar? Do you build a new motor because its limiting you? Well, I'd be a hypocrite to say no, I sent the head off to be cleaned up when I thought the car was no longer making the power it once did. The upside of removing all possible mechanical excuses is that when you are done, there is only one left standing (err sitting). JMO

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I forgot to add "when you can consistently manage race traffic without significantly losing time." Judging from the VIR HC vs. 944 posts, theres a bunch of HC guys that need to work on this.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

hahahahahaha, guess you should have been there then

please don't speculate through a web board

 

Wait wait wait. Chad wrecked the new Civic Si?!?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by urbanlegend21 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">hahahahahaha, guess you should have been there then
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I honestly don't know how bad it was so I'm not going to assume it wasn't just because I'm a part of the series. I will admit that I'm skeptical that it's not indiciative of the typical faster vs slower class issues present in most amateur race groups. If someone has video that demonstrates the behavior of concern I would greatly appreciate a link.

Just as a general FYI though... I'm fairly certainly it was Alex who came up with the idea to separate out H1 to minimize issues because they're so much faster than both the 944s and Hondas. He also suggested we move the Super Cup cars with them but since they're just as slow as us it wouldn't have made sense. I do not believe the request was made to move H1 by our series or any of our drivers.

edit: stupid spellcheck is messed up


Modified by Apocalypse at 12:03 PM 8/13/2004

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chad &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">When do you think you as a driver are at the limit of the vehicle? What do you change to go faster?

</TD></TR></TABLE>

For most non-Schumacher types, it takes a long time to get comfortable enough with a vehicle and be at the limit and under control 100% of the time. Some cars are easier to drive than others but it still takes time to to get to that level for the majority.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chad &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Do you change suspension?
Go with a wider tire?
Get a new faster car?

</TD></TR></TABLE>

My philosophy has always been to try and do more with less. That will force you to get on your driving game. When your budget is limited, it is easier to follow this, but is is still sound regardless. My experience is mostly with solo, but driving is driving. Sure, I have changed my suspension, and got wider tires, but my bigest gains were from learning how to get more out of the car as a driver.

When you hit a plateau find someone better and learn from them. When you stop learning anything new from HPDE Instuctors or your local Auto-x club instuctors, got to a better school or get some coaching from a Pro.

I have been driving the same car for about 6 years now. I started out in autocross with it. I was a consistent mid-packer in CSP. As time went on, I developed the car a little, and worked even harder on my skils. In the last two seasons I have had several FTDs and even FTD PAX (with the local clubs) driving a CSP car that is not built to the extent of the rules. Despite this I still think I have much to learn as a driver.

I have purposely chosen to stick with a slower car and work on my "mAd SkIlLs" in the hopes that one day, when I get something bad *** to drive, I will be ready for it.

Just my thoughts...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by urbanlegend21 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

hahahahahaha, guess you should have been there then

please don't speculate through a web board

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Precisely why I included this in my post...
"IF the other cars were plugging up the track sooooo bad that, no matter what your best effort, you couldn't get through them cleanly. Thats a matter for race control and they *should* be handling it. "

But again, all other things being equal, if you can catch them, you should be able to pass them. If you can't, then thats something you need to work on instead of bitching about who/what is in your way.

One thing I've learned about racing in 50+ car groups with 30+ Spec Miatas is that YOU need to learn how to dispose of guys that are slowing you up.
Sure, its polite and the *right* thing to do for the 3 guys racing for P20 in SM to get out of the way of the guys racing for the lead in ITC. Yep, its the polite and nice thing to do. BUT, no rulebook anywhere says those guys MUST get out of the way. In reality they have just as much right to keep racing as you do, even if they are "slow" and well back in the pack. It can be frustrating, but thats the way it is.
So... YOU need to be able to dispose of them. Especially if its significantly slower traffic.

Want to learn how to do this???
Spend a couple of years in a 60 car group with LESS horsepower than 80 to 90% of the cars on the track with you. Try to be winning your class amongst 35 to 40 cars that have more power, better brakes, better gearing, and couldn't give a rats *** about whats going on in your class. Passing the same car 10 times in one race is not all that out of the ordinary as every time you hit a straight they just blow right on by (again). THAT will teach you race traffic management and I promise that returning to a fast car and passing slower ones will suddenly become cake.

 

Chris,

You are spot on about this. The majority of people at track days and to a smaller extent club racing aren't close enough to the limit to tell the difference. That doesn't mean they can't fiddle with settings and upgrades to make the car faster only that they haven't reached the limit of the car or their own driving ability.

In Chad's case, I am fairly confident after watching him race and being on the track with him and looking at his lap times that he is in fact at or close to the extreme limit.

Most people aren't.

All you have to do is look at laptimes in various classes to determine who is close to the limit. For example at Summit Point in H1 there were 3 or 4 drivers all running different cars that were doing sub 25's. In H4 there were 3 or 4 of us, again in different cars all within a half second (29's). We must be close to the limit given the rules and the similarities in the cars.

The best way to make the car faster is to make the driver faster !!! Some of this is simply seat time, and some of it is minute setup changes.

But to get to the level of a professional takes hundreds of hours of seat time. Some people have natural ability and learn quickly (not me) others take much longer.

I am now at the level where I can detect very minute changes such as 1 pound of pressure in one tire, or a bad alignment setting. But that took years.

Many years ago I had an expensive track suspension put into one of my BMW's and I thought wow this is great. I had a very experienced racer drive it and he said to me "...how the hell can you drive this thing......the suspension couldn't be set up any worse..." He set it up for me and guess what...........I was barely any faster. I didn't have the skill to utilize the suspensions improvements.

Perfect example is currently in HC. I asked several knowledgeable folks who run similar cars to mine about tire pressures for the new Hoosiers. I got 32/30 from one person, 34/36, from another and lastly 36/38 from the last person. While I realize that we all may have different setups, no setup can compensate for an 8 pound difference on a Hoosier given the current rules. We are not talking about the difference between a simply spring upgrade and a set of Moton's. Most of us are running similar spring rates and coil overs.

In the end the person who normally turns the faster lap times of the people I spoke to, was closest to what worked best for me and my Hoosiers.

This exact thing is happening to a friend of mine who just spent 3k on a suspension setup and is scratching his head why he can't get below a 30 at Summit. I drove his car and did 26 flat and it's not even my car and I don't want to crash it.

I took it out a few more times and noticed that it wasn't stable under braking but we tried several different things with only minimal success. That same day an experienced Rolex Grand Am racer followed my friend around Summit in another's person Porsche. The person is Mike Levitas who co-drives with Randy Pobst in Grand Am Cup (Mike owns Turbo Performance).

As soon as the session was over Mike came over and said "Your ride height is too high in the back and it looks like you have the wrong camber in the rear.......Click the ride height down about an inch and a quarter and reduce your camber in the rear by X amount" My friend asked if Mike would take the car out and Mike said "I don't need to take your car out I've been racing for many years and I can guess what type of setup a competitor has simply by following him for a few laps."

We made the adjustments and I drove the car and suddenly did a full 3/4 of a second faster. I knew the setup was wrong but even driving the car I wasn't fully sure what needed to be adjusted. Mike didn't even drive the car and just through visual inspection had the answer. Now consider that Mike isn't even a "real" professional and is constistently slower than his teamate Pobst by about a half second or so.

Last caveat. I notice that some people drive very conservative and this more than anything limits your ability to find your limit and the cars. The people who constantly push the envelope and get a wheel (or two) off the rumble strip and into the dirt may look like they are out of control, but unless you get out of control you will never know where the limit is on the car.

I did some Skip Barber open wheel racing with all those young go-kart kids a few years back. In practice you'd swear they were horrible drivers. They were all going off at every corner, sliding the car all over the place and so on. Come race time they never (or rarely) put a wheel wrong and were so far ahead of the rest of us all old geezers it wasn't even funny.

So in closing you need as much seat time as you can get, and you need to be willing to think outside the box and try new things on the track (left foot braking or a camber change). You also have to be willing to push the envelope and loose control and be fairly confident enough that you can still save the car and lastly ....

.....you have to be able to put the car on the limit or even over the limit (the car's limit) given the current setup and be able to consistently save the car to tell what needs to be addressed.

Regards,

Jon P. Kofod
#40 Integra LS H4

 

great write-up Jon

Being a rather inexperienced HPDE driver I'm far from knowledgable with setups, but I've been wondering lately how I can possibly learn more about the "right" setup. I know there are some good books out there (and I'll be ordering some soon), but I was thinking about this the other day and wondered if there would be much of a market for a sortof "setup" training class?

Maybe a local racing school could set up a class where they have cars with different, predictable incorrect, setups. They could train people to recognize these changes, thus improving thier setup skills. I would think that this could be a very popular class. Maybe have a pre-requisite of X amount of previous track time, plus students would have to have read a specific book on setting up suspension, so that the class is more about setting up the car, not learing terminology, etc.

Perhaps I'm dillusional to think that this is something that can be taught, but it may at least be a foundation for skills to be learned with more track time.

Steve

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chad &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So with rr98itr's post....when do you start to change the car and not the driver?

</TD></TR></TABLE>

You've got to have an innate ability to feel what the car is doing beneath you; to gain that connection, you need to have the technical knowledge base to understand the dynamics of the car - you don't have to be a shade tree mechanic, but if you invest the time to understand what parameters of a car's setup, changes its behavior one way or the other, the easier it'll be to diagnose what's right and what's wrong.

Moreover, you need to be able to push the car above and beyond its limits - you have to be able to push the car beyond its envelope, and bring it back; sometimes you'll spin, sometimes you wont, but (as Jon said) until you reach the pinnacle, you don't know how high you can go.

Getting there, however, is another story.

Some people are, luckily, savants behind the wheel; the have an intimate understanding of the car's movements grounded solely by instinct - they were born to drive. More importantly, they not only are able to feel the car out, but also are able to think quickly enough to think about what they're doing and adapt without dropping the ball. This is something that cannot be taught.

How do you know you're "really quick"? If you're at the top of the times sheets. Not just once, but lap after lap after lap. If you're w/ in 100ths or 1000ths of your best lap time every lap, then you know that you're at the limit.

Driving is something far greater than the sum of its parts. You need to understand the car as a technical blueprint; you need to respect it like a beautiful woman whom you’re dancing with for the first time (you'd hate to step on her toes, or tug on her too coarsely - wouldn't you?); and you need to have the self-confidence and faith to push all the way to the envelope, look over the edge and pull yourself back all within the same instant.