with all these new tires out it dosen't make much sense doing a search on OLD topics

Anyways I have a set of new 15's coming and I'm looking for a good set of tires that i coiuld use both on the streets and some weekend autoX. I liove the azenis but hate the short life span and the performance in standing water; so what other brands should i consider?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jspexae102 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">but hate the short life span and the performance in standing water</TD></TR></TABLE>

Is this something you've experienced yourself or just more internet bandwagon rumor? I dont agree with either of those statements.

 

Well a little bit of both i guess. I have the RT215 and they lasted about a yr before they're nearly corded. Also this past winter I was able to constantly break loose (without trying) in my low hp/low tq car during lane changes in 3rd gear. And a few weeks ago I spun out on a freeway on ramp, thankfully no lives or properity were hurt. Still love them tho. It's just a shame that falken dosen't have a ST115 for 15's

Well anyways other tires i'm considering are the
Dunlop Direzza DZ101
Avon Tech M500
Yokohama ES100

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jspexae102 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Also this past winter I was able to constantly break loose (without trying) in my low hp/low tq car during lane changes in 3rd gear. And a few weeks ago I spun out on a freeway on ramp,
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I think you have some other issues besides trying to blame the tires to worry about.

Honestly.

Lay off the throttle there speed racer.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jspexae102 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Well a little bit of both i guess. I have the RT215 and they lasted about a yr before they're nearly corded</TD></TR></TABLE>

Miles? Use?

'1 yr' doesnt mean much. All the tires you listed wont be as sticky as the Azenis and they may last a bit longer - such is the trade off. I'm pretty happy with the ES100's on my 325is, but the Azenis is just a much better tire for track/autox use.

 

about 10K, and 4 autoX sessions.

Granted I am not the best driver in the world but give me some credit, I understand the stupidity of racing and pushing my car to the limit on the streets. It was just pouring that night and all I wanted to do was get home.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jspexae102 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">about 10K, and 4 autoX sessions.</TD></TR></TABLE>
. . . and they're nearly corded?

I think you need to lay off the burnouts, the offramp antics, and the "lane changes in 3rd gear" that "break them loose in a low-power car." Your tires will probably last longer.

What are your alignment specs BTW?

I've gotten 20,000+ miles out of Azenis with wear-friendly alignments. I've also never had a problem driving with 2/32" or more of tread in the wet, because I tend to use my brain when driving in said conditions, and don't mess around on the street. (On a related note, the RT-615 that recently replaced the RT-215 is said to handle standing water better.)

As 1GreyTeg said, you have some other issues you need to look at first. If you're only getting 10,000 miles out of the RT-215 down to the cords with only street driving and 4 autocrosses, you're certainly not going to get that much more out of the others you listed, and you'll have less grip to boot.

 

2 HPDEs 2 autoxs... 1.5 years of driving daily... and my Azeniz are just now needing to be "replaced"... they might just see track only and get me another 2 weekends. oh and that is roughly 16k miles :-P

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jspexae102 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">with all these new tires out it dosen't make much sense doing a search on OLD topics

Anyways I have a set of new 15's coming and I'm looking for a good set of tires that i coiuld use both on the streets and some weekend autoX. I liove the azenis but hate the short life span and the performance in standing water; so what other brands should i consider?</TD></TR></TABLE>

What size are the rims, 15X? If it's 15x 6 or 6.5 the Consider the MXs

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Is this something you've experienced yourself or just more internet bandwagon rumor? I dont agree with either of those statements.</TD></TR></TABLE>

i would agree with the wet weather thing.. i hate them in the rain.. even my balding ES100's handled better in heavy rain..

 

daily driving azenis is a bad idea although i used to do it. i changed tires about every 10k and hydroplanned everytime it rained. there fun tires though for aggressive driving.

 

I think a good all-around summer tire is the Yokohoma AVS ES-100. It's low price (about $70-80) very good in rain. About double the life of the Azenis, down on grip compared to the Azenis. Reasonably quiet and smooth riding for a performance tire.

 

Trade-offs, trade-offs, trade-offs.

Comparing street tires, they basically look like this:

<u>Azenis RT-215</u>
Advantages: Great dry traction, low purchase price
Disadvantages: Poor wet traction (compared with most other street tires), poor treadlife (ditto)

<u>Yokohama ES100</u>
Advantages: Great wet traction, great treadlife, low purchase price
Disadvantages: So-so dry traction (compared with the best tires out there)

The Kumho MX is in between these two in most respects - better dry traction than the ES100, although not as good as the Azenis; better wet traction and treadlife than the Azenis, although not as good as the ES100; etc. Cost a bit more than either, but still relatively inexpensive.

There are new tires coming on the market, like the Azenis RT-615 and the Avon you mention, but they haven't had enough experience reported to know how well they'll do or how long they'll last. Although we don't know how long they'll last, the similarly-inexpensive Avon Tech M500 and the Fuzion ZRi both beat the ES100 in a recent Tire Rack test; up until then, the ES100 seemed to offer the best "bang for the buck" around.

Basically, you will have to make some kind of compromise - for example, get the Azenis if you want to maximize your autocross abilities with a street tire and live with the downsides on the street, or the ES100 (or similar) if you care more about cost per mile and street-friendly characteristics and you're willing to live with less capabilities at autocross. If you would like to maximize the capabilities for each situation without compromising the other, get a separate set of wheels so that you can use Azenis or R compounds for autocross, and a street-friendly tire for the street.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxtasy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><u>Azenis RT-215</u>
Advantages: Great dry traction, low purchase price
Disadvantages: Poor wet traction (compared with most other street tires), poor treadlife (ditto)
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I think one should rather look at hard test data here, as opinions vary. Check out my post here:
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1185610

From a test of 12 of some of the best street tires available, the Azenis RT-215 were ranked 4th in wet laptime, 5th in wet slalom, 2nd in wet skidpad and 6th in wet braking. Considering just wet performance, this puts them in 4th place out of 12, behind the 1st place Michelin PS2, 2nd place Goodyear GS-D3 and 3rd place Dunlop SP Sport Maxx, all in terms of wet performance. So the Azenis are certainly better than most in the wet (not standing water, just wet) and do not have "Poor wet traction". Tires were not evaluated for hydroplaning, as this occurs at high speed in standing water for all tires, and the Tirerack facility did not test for this.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxtasy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The Kumho MX is in between these two in most respects - better dry traction than the ES100, although not as good as the Azenis; better wet traction and treadlife than the Azenis, although not as good as the ES100; etc.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

The test data shows that some of this is not fact but fiction. The Kumho MX rated near the bottom of the wet performance, in 11 th place just ahead of the wet loser, the Yokohama AVS Sport, and not in the same class as the Azenis in terms of wet performance.

In terms of dry performance, the Kumho MX was very good, ranking 3rd behind 1st place Goodrich T/A KD, 2nd Michelin PS2, with the Azenis in 4th place. The Azenis won the dry laptime by 2/100 th of a second, ahead of the Goodrich KD, so I would call that a tie.

Without that test data, I would not have had a clue as to which was really the best tire for wet or dry, as opinions vary (greatly). Treadlife is another issue.

 

My experience agrees with the test data. The Kumho MX is much worse than the Azenis in the wet.

I've also gotten more than 20,000 miles, 2 years, and 30+ autoxes out a set of Azenis.

(The Kumhos were shaved so they didn't last nearly as long as that... )

 

There's a saying floating around (because .RJ says it all the time ) that if you're going fast enough on the street to slide your car on a set of Azenis, you're going too fast for the street.

At full tread, at least, that's true in the wet as well. My BMW is on 225's right now and it's rediculous how much wet grip there is. I have to literally use my madd tite drifting skillz to get the thing to kick out at all in the wet, like, turn-in, rev up and drop clutch mid turn. There's that much grip in the wet.

Now, once they get below about 4/32" tread, which doesn't take long, it starts to become a different story in the pouring rain but they still grip well in the wet as long as there's no standing water. [/repeating myself]

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by descartesfool &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">From a test of 12 of some of the best street tires available</TD></TR></TABLE>

I really don't know what to make of that tire test. The results are inconsistent with the many reports we've had on h-t.com of people who found that the RT-215 was not as good in rain as other tires they've driven. The tread pattern on the RT-215, with its wide tread blocks, would also make one believe that it will not do well on wet pavement. As you note, tires were not evaluated for hydroplaning - and this is the big danger on wet pavement.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by maxQ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I've also gotten more than 20,000 miles, 2 years, and 30+ autoxes out a set of Azenis.</TD></TR></TABLE>

The figures I've posted above - e.g. 10-15K miles on the RT-215 - are what most people have reported on h-t.com using them on an ITR. If you have a lighter-weight car, or if your driving patterns or pavement quality is different from average, your mileage may vary (YMMV). As I noted, a few people have reported getting 20K miles on a set, and a few others have reported getting as few as 7-8K or even less, but the majority fall into the 10-15K mile range. If you get 20K on a set of the RT-215, then you will probably also get above-average treadlife on other tires, and can still expect 2-3 times as many miles on the ES100, for example.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TeamSlowdotOrg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">if you're going fast enough on the street to slide your car on a set of Azenis, you're going too fast for the street.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Keep in mind that we are talking about comparing one tire against another. Many owners have reported that the Azenis RT-215 grips worse than other street tires they've tried on wet pavement. That doesn't mean that you're automatically going to get in an accident in them, or that you don't have to slow down, or that worn tires aren't worse than new tires. There are lots of other variables involved in the amount of grip you have in wet conditions, just like in dry conditions. But when you're looking at choosing a tire, that is one variable that you get to decide for yourself. So you need to factor that into your decision in determining what tire best fits your needs. If you live in Los Angeles (in any year other than this year, anyway), or if you're only using a particular set of tires for autocrossing, then wet traction might not be something that's all that important to you, and the Azenis RT-215 might be perfect. But if you live in Seattle and you're using the tires for daily commuting, another tire with better wet grip (like the Bridgestone S-03 or the Yokohama ES100, just to name two) might be better for your needs.

And if you're not sure which tire to get, there's an easy answer - just try one! The nice thing (or not ) about tires is that they wear out. This gives you the chance to try a different tire every time you need to get a new set. If you like what you're using, get another set. If you don't, then get a set that is reported to be better in terms of your personal preferences and priorities. You can keep experimenting in this way, and find one that fits YOUR needs best. (Oh, and if your car permits you to rotate your tires, make sure to do so, so that all four tires wear out at about the same time, and you don't have to mix tires when you replace them.)

 

P.S. It's also worth noting that the Falken Azenis RT-215 is in the process of being replaced by the RT-615. The RT-615 isn't appearing on the Falken website yet, but based on the following comments on Vulcan's website (Vulcan is a tire dealer), it sounds like the RT-615 was designed to address two frequent complaints about the RT-215 (that they're not so good for hydroplaning on wet pavement, and that their grip "goes away" when hot):

"Improved motorsports grade cap compound maintains grip over a wide range of operating temperatures.

Increased internal void ratio delivers enhanced wet grip and aquaplane resistance under competition conditions."

Let's hope they achieved those objectives. to Falken for trying.

(The treadwear rating of the RT-615 is 200, the same as the RT-215, so I wouldn't expect the treadlife to be any different.)

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TeamSlowdotOrg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">There's a saying floating around (because .RJ says it all the time ) that if you're going fast enough on the street to slide your car on a set of Azenis, you're going too fast for the street. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I wasn't talking about sliding.. you're right, you're going too fast if you can make the car slide.. I am speaking strictly about hydroplaning in the rain, going in a straight line.. they will hydroplane at speeds below what most people would consider a safe speed for conditions(and by normal people, I mean just that, normal people.. not mad tizzite crazy street driving stunnas..) driving on other, better wet handling tires..

 

i'm waiting for the reports on the hankook z212.

looks like it'll be decent in the rain with those huge grooves, however, i wonder what dry traction will be like with those huge grooves. looks like the compound is nice and sticky though.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxtasy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I really don't know what to make of that tire test. The results are inconsistent with the many reports we've had on h-t.com </TD></TR></TABLE>

While it is possible that the results of that test are bogus, consider these facts:
A) Two professional race drivers with tons of experience in World Challenge Touring Car, on BMWs did the driving
B) Instrumented testing including a Vericom VC 2000 Performance Computer
C) Control tires used in test, Goodyear Eagle RS-A
D) Top notch test track facility, that has done hundreds of tire tests
E) Tires tested include tires not sold by Tirerack, such as Azenis and Toyos,and Azenis did very well, but were not the best overall, coming in second
F) Toyo tires do not do well in this test, but they are the spec brand for World Challenge where Turner Motorsports races and wins championships with Bill Auberlen, from which come the drivers for this test
G) four stock BMW 330Ci's for all tests
H) All wet tests done on one day, dry tests on the next, so no time lag and close to identical conditions for all tires, and six sets of identical wheels were used. That makes for 24 wheels and 48 tires.

Compare that to OPINIONS of people here on HT who do not do back to back testing, have maybe only tried one or two types of tires in a couple of years, maybe on the same car, maybe not, maybe on the same road, maybe not, maybe at the same air and track temperature, maybe not, maybe on the same wheels, maybe not, maybe with the same amount of oil on a wet pavement, maybe not, maybe at the same alignment and pressure, maybe not. I helped direct a three year scientific test that involved asking people's opinions in comparing things as well as measuring with instruments what they were being asked to give their opinions on, with statistics kept on the consistency of responses of each participant, and I can assure you that only very few people out of a large group could even come close to giving consistent readings when presented with the same test on different days. I would absolutely trust a carefully controlled test over a bunch of undocumented opinions about tires! Everyone tends to love the products (tires in this case) they chose in their own wisdom and have paid for. Very biased in most cases.

As for hydroplaning, read the link from Yokohama and the one from Tirerack I put in that thread and see at what speeds the tires begin to hydroplane when using slicks and various grooved tires, and directional tires installed backwards and forwards. All tires hydroplane, some just slightly earlier than others, and it depends a lot on tire pressure since that determines the force each square inch of tire pushes through the water. You have to slow gradually if it happens. I have driven with Michelin Sport Cups and Hoosiers and Yokohama 032's and lots of other street tires on the track in the wet. Some are not recommended! For example Michelin says the Sport Cups are good in the wet if they are warm, but you have to cut gooves in them if track has any standing water. I trust the tests, but some may not.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by descartesfool &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
&lt;snip&gt;
From a test of 12 of some of the best street tires available, the Azenis RT-215 were ranked 4th in wet laptime, 5th in wet slalom, 2nd in wet skidpad and 6th in wet braking.
&lt;/snip&gt;
</TD></TR></TABLE>

While the Azenis may be good in the wet under controlled circumstances it still does poorly in standing water. There is just not enough tread. When the water is deep enough its hydroplane city.

If you buy a real street tire you can drive in the real world where there are puddles, gullies, indents from truck tires, etc. If you buy a borderline track tire then drive it on a wet skidpad at some proving grounds.

Just my opinion. Worth every cent you paid for it :-)

 

full tread MX&gt;full tread Azenis in standing water on the highway. At low tread, both suck.

low tread Azenis&gt;any MX on wet pavement. The compound just plain sticks better, tread pattern doesn't matter so much when you're not trying to pump water out.

 

Hydroplaning is a dangerous condition that likely causes many serious accidents. Driving any tire while it is hydroplaning is asking for trouble. That is why driving R compounds or any pseudo track tire like the Azenis on the street is risky business, and best left to sane drivers. If it rains too hard, you park the car.

The lightweight BMW 3 series pseudo track car came equipped with Michelin Pilot Sport Cup R compounds as standard equipment, and a bucnh of the cars were crashed by journalists in the rain to BMW's embarrassment. I guess they forgot to read Michelin's instruction about having to cut extra grooves for any standing water.

As for the new Azenis, it is hard to imagine that they will be very much better in the hydroplaning dept than the old ones by just looking at the tread. They might be better, but I would not imagine tons better. Still looks like a pseudo track tire to me.



Irrespective of this comment about them "Increased internal void ratio delivers enhanced wet grip and aquaplane resistance under competition conditions.
"

Plus this tire is no longer so cheap. At the size of 225/45/17 as in that tire test, they are $142, while the old ones are $111 in the same size. I would still opt for one of the tires that did best in the wet like the Michelin PS2's for the street, at $166 per tire. This tire has deep circumferential grooves that are good against hydroplaning. Only available in 17 " or larger.



Another I would consider is the B.F. Goodrich KDW, even though it was not in the test, as it is in the same family as the KD's that did the best overall in the dry.

KD's, great in the dry. These come in 205/50/15, Left and Right.


KDW's, great in the wet, original tread pattern. 16" and up only.


KDW's, great in the wet, new tread pattern. These come in 205/50/15.

 

Good discussion.

To add to what descartesfool has said...

Let's start with what the Tire Rack says about hydroplaning:

"Hydroplaning happens when one or more tires is lifted from the road by a wedge of water that gets trapped in front of and under a tire as the vehicle drives through water. Hydroplaning most frequently occurs during heavy rainstorms when water creates puddles on the highway or expressway. In addition to the accompanying splash and scaring the heck out of the driver, hydroplaning typically causes the steering wheel to jerk and the vehicle to abruptly pull towards the puddle.

The speed at which a tire hydroplanes is a function of water depth, vehicle speed, vehicle weight, tire width, tread depth and tread design. It depends on how much water has to be removed, how much weight is pressing down on the tires and how efficient the tread design is at evacuating water. While deeper water, higher speeds, lighter vehicles, wider tires, less tread depth and less efficient tread designs will cause tires to hydroplane at lower speeds; all tires will be forced to hydroplane at some speed.

As a rule, tread design affects hydroplaning resistance at high speeds and in deep water. Tread compound affects wet traction at lower speeds or in shallow water.

Directional tread designs (sometimes called Unidirectional tread designs) are frequently used on tires intended to better resist hydroplaning. Their multiple tread grooves are aligned in a repeating "V" shape to increase the tire's ability to channel water from between the tire's footprint and the road. Somewhat like the vanes of a water pump continually pushing water in one direction through the engine, the grooves of a directional tire are designed to push water in one direction through the tire (forward on an angle to the sides). Directional tread designs are especially helpful in increasing hydroplaning resistance when relatively wide Plus Two, Plus Three or Plus Four tire and wheel applications result in fitting a much wider tire to a vehicle than its Original Equipment size."

You can see how a directional tread pattern is designed to squeeze the water out from the middle of the tire towards the edges, as the tire rolls, by looking at a tire that is known to do well on wet pavement, such as the Yokohama AVS ES100:



You can also see why you DON'T want to mount the tires in the wrong direction; this would make hydroplaning WORSE by trying to squeeze the water from the edges of the tire towards the middle.

In addition to the tread pattern, there are a couple of design elements that affect the risk of hydroplaning, by determining the amount of water that the tire surface is capable of moving to the sides. One is the "void ratio", that is, the percent of tread area occupied by the tread grooves, rather than by the tread blocks that come into contact with the pavement. You can see that the ES100 street tire, pictured above, has a higher void ratio than the Yokohama A032R track tire, with its huge tread blocks and very little area devoted to tread grooves:



Even worse are track tires like the Hoosier R3S04, the Avon Tech R, and the Hankook Ventus Z214, which all have tread patterns that look like this:



Another element that affects the amount of water that the surface can move to the side is the tread depth. The deeper the tread depth, the more water can be moved aside. This is why ALL tires incur a greater risk of hydroplaning as they get worn. Tires come with treadwear indicator bars molded into the tread at 2/32" tread depth; these appear as strips of tread that become flat across the width of the tire when the tread wears down to this level. It is actually illegal to drive on public roads in most of the United States with tread depth less than 2/32". Even when tires don't reach that point, their wet performance will decline, and the risk of hydroplaning will increase, when they're worn down to 4/32" or 3/32". Even the best tread pattern around isn't going to be all that effective at such a shallow tread depth. This is why some folks replace tires at 4/32" of tread and don't wait for it to wear all the way down to the treadwear indicator bars.

Tread depth varies, not just from wear, but from the factory as well. Most street tires have 10/32" of tread when new. The Toyo RA-1 track tire and the Azenis RT-215 and RT-615 come with 8/32" of tread, and the Yokohama A032R track tire comes with 6/32". Many folks shave tires down to 6/32" or 4/32" of tread for track use.

All of these factors - tread pattern, void ratio, and tread depth - have an effect on the risk of hydroplaning. Consider them when you're choosing a tire, if you frequently drive on wet pavement, particularly with standing water. If you live in a relatively dry area, or if you're buying tires strictly for dry track use, it may not be a concern at all. If you are choosing tires for a daily driver and expect to drive in rain fairly often, it may be a big factor in your decision.