Tires for the street - A test in Super Street mag Apr 2005
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Tires for the street - A test in Super Street mag Apr 2005
I was a little bored during the Sepang F1 race, so I decided to analyze the data from a tire test just published in Super Street magazine and some time before in Eurotuner mag. The test is interesting because the drivers were amazingly enough Will Turner and Don Salama of Turner Motorsports and World Challenge fame, so you can imagine they wrung those little black gumballs as hard as they could.
The test was conducted at the Tirerack facility using their identical BMW 330Ci cars and 17x8 wheels with a 225/45/17 tire size across the board. I am always interested in comparative testing as no opinions are required, people are un-biased and you get comparable hard data, in this case for 12 of the best street tires available. Now I don't plan on replacing my Hoosiers with these, but I am always looking for tires for my street cars, and I always want to know which the best are. Plus a rain tire is always needed, and my Yoko's are worn out.
I thought I would chart the data from the magazine to get a better idea of the variation, and draw my own conclusions about which are the best tires. I also ranked the tires in two ways, one as the magazine did it, with 12 points for a best in class and 1 point for a worst in class (12 tires), and one with an old F1 style point system, where 1st is 10 points and 2nd is 6 points, 3rd to 6th is 4 to 1 point to see if there was a difference in the ranking by awarding proportionately more points to the podium finishers.
Here is the data: (sorry the Imagestation images come out at half size)
Rank Ordinals, points as in magazine
Rank ordinals, old F1 style
Dry lap time
Wet lap time (same scale as for dry lap time to compare)
Dry skidpad
Wet skidpad
Dry braking
Wet braking
Dry slalom
Wet slalom
So any way you look at it, if you count all the data, the Michelin PS2 is the best tire. It scored three 1st places, two 2nds and two 3rds. It gets first place in both ranking methods.
If you just care about the dry performance, the B.F. Goodrich T/A KD is the best overall. It is made by Michelin. If you count just the wet, the Michelin PS2 is the best with the Goodyear F1 GS-D3 a very, very close second. The best dry lap time went to the Azenis, by a hair, with a time of 29.448 while the T/A KD's time was 29.474. Not sure that is a repeatable difference, as 0.026 seconds is pretty small.
One of the more telling things I saw was that the best wet tire, the Michelin PS2 also had the 3rd fastest dry laptime, at 29.537, just 0.09 seconds slower than the Azenis. If you look at the dry laptime chart, you will ee that the top three tires are in a group by themselves.
Using the standard ranking, the order is Michelin PS2, Azenis RT-215, Goodyear F1-GS, with the B.F. Goodrich T/A KD.
Using the old F1 ranking, the order is Michelin PS2, a tie for 2nd between the Goodyear F1 GS-D3 and the B.F. Goodrich T/A KD, with the Azenis in 4th.
The worst tire is the Yokohama AVS sport, any way you look at it. That is funny because I saw the editor of Grassroots Motorsports the other day say how much he liked them on his own car on a Speed Channel program. Just shows why I like instrumented testing rather than opinions!
You can form your own opinions, but I thought it was telling that the F1 race today was won by Michelin, and they make the best dry tire and wet tire in this test. I also love my Michelin Sport Cups on the track, as they are just as fast as my Hoosiers, and they last much longer. Michelins cost, but it seems you get what you pay for.
I was also quite surprised at how close the tires are in some of the dry tests, and how different they are in the wet. In the dry, it is like splitting hairs, but in the wet there is a wide difference in performance. I will be buying a Michelin product soon (too bad they don't come in 15" sizes). Feel free to draw your own conclusions, and may the grip be with you.
The test was conducted at the Tirerack facility using their identical BMW 330Ci cars and 17x8 wheels with a 225/45/17 tire size across the board. I am always interested in comparative testing as no opinions are required, people are un-biased and you get comparable hard data, in this case for 12 of the best street tires available. Now I don't plan on replacing my Hoosiers with these, but I am always looking for tires for my street cars, and I always want to know which the best are. Plus a rain tire is always needed, and my Yoko's are worn out.
I thought I would chart the data from the magazine to get a better idea of the variation, and draw my own conclusions about which are the best tires. I also ranked the tires in two ways, one as the magazine did it, with 12 points for a best in class and 1 point for a worst in class (12 tires), and one with an old F1 style point system, where 1st is 10 points and 2nd is 6 points, 3rd to 6th is 4 to 1 point to see if there was a difference in the ranking by awarding proportionately more points to the podium finishers.
Here is the data: (sorry the Imagestation images come out at half size)
Rank Ordinals, points as in magazine
Rank ordinals, old F1 style
Dry lap time
Wet lap time (same scale as for dry lap time to compare)
Dry skidpad
Wet skidpad
Dry braking
Wet braking
Dry slalom
Wet slalom
So any way you look at it, if you count all the data, the Michelin PS2 is the best tire. It scored three 1st places, two 2nds and two 3rds. It gets first place in both ranking methods.
If you just care about the dry performance, the B.F. Goodrich T/A KD is the best overall. It is made by Michelin. If you count just the wet, the Michelin PS2 is the best with the Goodyear F1 GS-D3 a very, very close second. The best dry lap time went to the Azenis, by a hair, with a time of 29.448 while the T/A KD's time was 29.474. Not sure that is a repeatable difference, as 0.026 seconds is pretty small.
One of the more telling things I saw was that the best wet tire, the Michelin PS2 also had the 3rd fastest dry laptime, at 29.537, just 0.09 seconds slower than the Azenis. If you look at the dry laptime chart, you will ee that the top three tires are in a group by themselves.
Using the standard ranking, the order is Michelin PS2, Azenis RT-215, Goodyear F1-GS, with the B.F. Goodrich T/A KD.
Using the old F1 ranking, the order is Michelin PS2, a tie for 2nd between the Goodyear F1 GS-D3 and the B.F. Goodrich T/A KD, with the Azenis in 4th.
The worst tire is the Yokohama AVS sport, any way you look at it. That is funny because I saw the editor of Grassroots Motorsports the other day say how much he liked them on his own car on a Speed Channel program. Just shows why I like instrumented testing rather than opinions!
You can form your own opinions, but I thought it was telling that the F1 race today was won by Michelin, and they make the best dry tire and wet tire in this test. I also love my Michelin Sport Cups on the track, as they are just as fast as my Hoosiers, and they last much longer. Michelins cost, but it seems you get what you pay for.
I was also quite surprised at how close the tires are in some of the dry tests, and how different they are in the wet. In the dry, it is like splitting hairs, but in the wet there is a wide difference in performance. I will be buying a Michelin product soon (too bad they don't come in 15" sizes). Feel free to draw your own conclusions, and may the grip be with you.
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From: MN
Re: Tires for the street - A test in Super Street mag Apr 2005 (descartesfool)
I'd like to see error bars on those graphs, but I doubt that Super Street would print such mundane things as standard deviations. Nice writeup, blurry graphs, unreadable numbers under red highlight 
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Re: Tires for the street - A test in Super Street mag Apr 2005 (EtherGhost)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EtherGhost »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'd like to see error bars on those graphs</TD></TR></TABLE>
Surely Mr. Holmes, you must be joking.
If you would like some larger numbers (or charts), simply right click on the picture of your choice and copy the properties. Then paste that into the address line of a new browser window. Add .orig.jpg at the end of the URL address and press the Enter key, and presto! Imagestation displays a double sized image. Or forget the numbers and just look at the charts.
Surely Mr. Holmes, you must be joking.
If you would like some larger numbers (or charts), simply right click on the picture of your choice and copy the properties. Then paste that into the address line of a new browser window. Add .orig.jpg at the end of the URL address and press the Enter key, and presto! Imagestation displays a double sized image. Or forget the numbers and just look at the charts.
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Re: Tires for the street - A test in Super Street mag Apr 2005 (descartesfool)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by descartesfool »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I will be buying a Michelin product soon (too bad they don't come in 15" sizes).</TD></TR></TABLE>
I've always wondered why manufacturers sometimes pass up the smaller sizes with high performance tires...don't tires like the Azenis prove the market is there?
I've always wondered why manufacturers sometimes pass up the smaller sizes with high performance tires...don't tires like the Azenis prove the market is there?
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From: Columbia, MO, USA
Re: Tires for the street - A test in Super Street mag Apr 2005 (cursED)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by cursED »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I've always wondered why manufacturers sometimes pass up the smaller sizes with high performance tires...don't tires like the Azenis prove the market is there?</TD></TR></TABLE>Probably not.
The only parts of this test that I find relevant are the lap times, and, gasp, the two tires I would expect to perform in dry and wet conditions on a track were the same two tires I would have picked given a blind guess.
Woo?
The only parts of this test that I find relevant are the lap times, and, gasp, the two tires I would expect to perform in dry and wet conditions on a track were the same two tires I would have picked given a blind guess.
Woo?
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Re: Tires for the street - A test in Super Street mag Apr 2005 (vtecvoodoo)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by vtecvoodoo »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">How many pages a month does the winner purchase?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Thomas, I think there is more rubber in the girls in that mag than in the ad copy. Perhaps you will have to wait for the Consumer Reports tire test. And remember than Don Salama and Will Turner drove on Toyos in WC, and they both raced on the T1-S used in the test, so you might think it would have been given better numbers. You must simply believe. I believe;-)
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Thomas, I think there is more rubber in the girls in that mag than in the ad copy. Perhaps you will have to wait for the Consumer Reports tire test. And remember than Don Salama and Will Turner drove on Toyos in WC, and they both raced on the T1-S used in the test, so you might think it would have been given better numbers. You must simply believe. I believe;-)
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Re: (SimpleMan)
now after the performance evaluation they should factor in the price and sizing and really make it a true test :-P
being a stats nerd, even now with the government... tests are rarely without flaw. In our hobby cost and sizing matter... in addition to performance. without those factors... i just have to go look it all up and figure it out on my own. And without doing those factors (in the article) the tire companies could have had a little "say" with advertising money.
SS = Big wheeled ricer mag
being a stats nerd, even now with the government... tests are rarely without flaw. In our hobby cost and sizing matter... in addition to performance. without those factors... i just have to go look it all up and figure it out on my own. And without doing those factors (in the article) the tire companies could have had a little "say" with advertising money.
SS = Big wheeled ricer mag
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Re: (MMsportsRexSi)
Interesting info. I have been to the Tire Rack site, driven those cars and track, and crunched data gained from testing and know that the folks there do a very good job of controlling the tests and limiting the variables as they car. There can and will always be some form or variable in any kind of test like this until we can put a car in a laboratory test tube but I have a lot of belief that the process, systems and professionalism that John Rastetter and John Rogers of the Tire Rack use. If you ever get a chance to visit the Tire Rack and see their systems and facilities, go and you will be amazed at how serious and focussed they are. I went there with our new General Manager and he was simply amazed.
I need some new street rubber for the CRX when the stock alloys with winter all seasons come off and the 15 inch summer wheels go back on. I was likely to buy my first set of Azenis but was concerned of them having no street longevity and rain issues. This test does not say anything about wear rates or compare value or available sizes but it does make me feel better that the Azenis does stack up quite well in all categories, is available in the smaller sizes at comparatively pretty inexpensive costs.
I need some new street rubber for the CRX when the stock alloys with winter all seasons come off and the 15 inch summer wheels go back on. I was likely to buy my first set of Azenis but was concerned of them having no street longevity and rain issues. This test does not say anything about wear rates or compare value or available sizes but it does make me feel better that the Azenis does stack up quite well in all categories, is available in the smaller sizes at comparatively pretty inexpensive costs.
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Re: (VWkila)
I think it is instructive to look at the Average values and Min and Max values on the data chart. Take for example 3 measures of dry performance, rounded to the nearest 1/10 second for all 12 tires:
----------Latime(s)----Skidpad(g)----Slalom(s)
Avg-------29.8-----------0.93-----------4.17
Best------29.4------------0.96-----------4.14
Worst----30.2------------0.90-----------4.20
There are no dogs here, as all 12 tires made 0.90 g's or more, which is amazing. Rubber has come a long way. If you look back at an old issue of Road & Track where they tested the Porsche Carrera RSR race car used in the IROC, they had trouble getting those numbers, and you can just pick them off the shelf at random now. Time through the cones is within 0.06 seconds, from best to worst. This is as driven by some very good professional drivers, and would surely not make for such close differences to the average driver, and you would know this is true if you have ever tried timed runs through a straight slalom. Lap times, which is of course what counts, vary by plus or minus 0.4 seconds from the average on a 30 second lap, and are of course significant. I would think that for the dry, you could buy virtually any of these tires and do well on the street. That is probably why the editor of GRM thought his AVS Sport's were good, because they are, even though they made the bottom of the list here.
It is obvious from the data that the largest differences in tire performance come in the wet, with much larger variations. But 3 of the tires were able to get over 0.87 g's in the wet, the PS2, GS-D3 and the RT-215. What amazed me the most was that the PS2 was the best in the wet on points but also stunningly good in the dry. Now that is a feat of engineering, and likely why they are standard equipment on the Porsche GT2 and GT3, as well as on the McLaren SLR. Plus for the prices I found at $169, they are not really much more than other tires at that size, except perhaps the MX which are $135 each, and those were pretty poor in the wet braking dept, at almost 12 feet more than the PS2's. I will be getting a set for my honey's WRX.
----------Latime(s)----Skidpad(g)----Slalom(s)
Avg-------29.8-----------0.93-----------4.17
Best------29.4------------0.96-----------4.14
Worst----30.2------------0.90-----------4.20
There are no dogs here, as all 12 tires made 0.90 g's or more, which is amazing. Rubber has come a long way. If you look back at an old issue of Road & Track where they tested the Porsche Carrera RSR race car used in the IROC, they had trouble getting those numbers, and you can just pick them off the shelf at random now. Time through the cones is within 0.06 seconds, from best to worst. This is as driven by some very good professional drivers, and would surely not make for such close differences to the average driver, and you would know this is true if you have ever tried timed runs through a straight slalom. Lap times, which is of course what counts, vary by plus or minus 0.4 seconds from the average on a 30 second lap, and are of course significant. I would think that for the dry, you could buy virtually any of these tires and do well on the street. That is probably why the editor of GRM thought his AVS Sport's were good, because they are, even though they made the bottom of the list here.
It is obvious from the data that the largest differences in tire performance come in the wet, with much larger variations. But 3 of the tires were able to get over 0.87 g's in the wet, the PS2, GS-D3 and the RT-215. What amazed me the most was that the PS2 was the best in the wet on points but also stunningly good in the dry. Now that is a feat of engineering, and likely why they are standard equipment on the Porsche GT2 and GT3, as well as on the McLaren SLR. Plus for the prices I found at $169, they are not really much more than other tires at that size, except perhaps the MX which are $135 each, and those were pretty poor in the wet braking dept, at almost 12 feet more than the PS2's. I will be getting a set for my honey's WRX.
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Re: (VWkila)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by VWkila »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">This test was done ona BMW 330ci? My Honda Civic isn't a BWMci.
I wonder how this test differ in my car....</TD></TR></TABLE>
Tires don't care what car they are attached to. Your Civic would likely not be as fast as the BMW stock for stock, but the relative differences in grip should be about the same.
I wonder how this test differ in my car....</TD></TR></TABLE>
Tires don't care what car they are attached to. Your Civic would likely not be as fast as the BMW stock for stock, but the relative differences in grip should be about the same.
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Re: (Def)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Def »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Tires don't care what car they are attached to. Your Civic would likely not be as fast as the BMW stock for stock, but the relative differences in grip should be about the same.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Tires do care about heat, though. A heavier, more powerful car will not affect them in the same way.
Tires do care about heat, though. A heavier, more powerful car will not affect them in the same way.
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Re: (MattP)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MattP »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Tires do care about heat, though. A heavier, more powerful car will not affect them in the same way.</TD></TR></TABLE>
thank you.
Tires do care about heat, though. A heavier, more powerful car will not affect them in the same way.</TD></TR></TABLE>
thank you.
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Re: (descartesfool)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by descartesfool »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Plus for the prices I found at $169, they are not really much more than other tires at that size, except perhaps the MX which are $135 each, and those were pretty poor in the wet braking dept, at almost 12 feet more than the PS2's. I will be getting a set for my honey's WRX.</TD></TR></TABLE>
FWIW, the RT-215 is $111.
FWIW, the RT-215 is $111.
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Re: (Tyson)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tyson »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">interesting results. but i think the test should have been limited to tires that offer AT LEAST MINUMUM 15" sizes. most of those tires are made for corvettes. </TD></TR></TABLE>
I agree, however only guys on this board want to buy 15" tires, myself included. The market for guys wanting to upgrade to 15" must be severely limited, as are new cars supplied with 15" wheels that someone would want to spend a lot of money on. Tire tests with real life data are very rare. You have to be grateful for what you can get.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by maxQ »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
FWIW, the RT-215 is $111.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Is that in the 225/45/17 size that all the others in the test are? If so, do you have a link to that price.
I agree, however only guys on this board want to buy 15" tires, myself included. The market for guys wanting to upgrade to 15" must be severely limited, as are new cars supplied with 15" wheels that someone would want to spend a lot of money on. Tire tests with real life data are very rare. You have to be grateful for what you can get.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by maxQ »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
FWIW, the RT-215 is $111.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Is that in the 225/45/17 size that all the others in the test are? If so, do you have a link to that price.
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Re: (descartesfool)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by descartesfool »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Is that in the 225/45/17 size that all the others in the test are? If so, do you have a link to that price.</TD></TR></TABLE>
225/45-17 Falken
1010tires.com is the suxx0r.
Andy - who wonders how many pages in Super Street a $50 markup buys...
Is that in the 225/45/17 size that all the others in the test are? If so, do you have a link to that price.</TD></TR></TABLE>
225/45-17 Falken
1010tires.com is the suxx0r.
Andy - who wonders how many pages in Super Street a $50 markup buys...
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having driven on the KD, I must agree that it is the best dry tire out there. It is actually decent in the wet, but these tires need heat. I have a feeling you'd see different results if the wet tests were carried out during the summer months.
The tires were great in cold dry, hot dry, hot & wet conditions, but in the cold & wet, they simply could not get enough heat to start gripping.
The g-force line of tires were actually the last line of tires designed independently of michelin. and probably the only reason that the bfgoodrich name wasn't wholly abandoned.
The tires were great in cold dry, hot dry, hot & wet conditions, but in the cold & wet, they simply could not get enough heat to start gripping.
The g-force line of tires were actually the last line of tires designed independently of michelin. and probably the only reason that the bfgoodrich name wasn't wholly abandoned.
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Re: (descartesfool)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by descartesfool »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> What amazed me the most was that the PS2 was the best in the wet on points but also stunningly good in the dry. Now that is a feat of engineering, and likely why they are standard equipment on the Porsche GT2 and GT3, as well as on the McLaren SLR. Plus for the prices I found at $169, they are not really much more than other tires at that size, except perhaps the MX which are $135 each, and those were pretty poor in the wet braking dept, at almost 12 feet more than the PS2's. I will be getting a set for my honey's WRX.</TD></TR></TABLE>
You won't be dissapointed with those tires on the WRX...trust me...I know
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chunky »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm surprised that the s-03 wasn't included.</TD></TR></TABLE>
That was also very surprising to me??? I've heard that the S-03 is comparable in the dry, but not in the wet.
Just as a side note, I've driven cars with the PS-2 (WRX), Azenis (ITR) and AVS Sport (350Z) on the track...and by the way, the ITR and 350Z are not mine, so no one get that impression. But after driving a H4 civic with RA-1, the level of grip between the DOT-R and the other tires are amazing, even more so when you consider the width of the other tires compared to a 205 RA-1. The RA-1 's had amazing grip, and they weren't warm either. It just showed my how much a difference tires make on a car....just my .02...
You won't be dissapointed with those tires on the WRX...trust me...I know
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chunky »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm surprised that the s-03 wasn't included.</TD></TR></TABLE>
That was also very surprising to me??? I've heard that the S-03 is comparable in the dry, but not in the wet.
Just as a side note, I've driven cars with the PS-2 (WRX), Azenis (ITR) and AVS Sport (350Z) on the track...and by the way, the ITR and 350Z are not mine, so no one get that impression. But after driving a H4 civic with RA-1, the level of grip between the DOT-R and the other tires are amazing, even more so when you consider the width of the other tires compared to a 205 RA-1. The RA-1 's had amazing grip, and they weren't warm either. It just showed my how much a difference tires make on a car....just my .02...
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Re: (rexrover17)
i wish price or some kind of bang for the buck was a rating as im sure the RT215 would have blown everybody out of the water hands down
From tires.com for 225/45/17
Michelin PS2 $166
TA K/D $167
Azenis $111
RS-Z211 $110 which wasnt tested i know
For being so close in performance why does Michelin and BF GoorRich charge so much more for a not really all that much superior tire?
At $200 per set less than the competition I could mount a new set of Azenis and still have enough $ for a spare set of winter tires left over to buy. And with performance that close I almost gurantee 99% of the "butt" on this board or anywhere couldnt even tell the difference
From tires.com for 225/45/17
Michelin PS2 $166
TA K/D $167
Azenis $111
RS-Z211 $110 which wasnt tested i know
For being so close in performance why does Michelin and BF GoorRich charge so much more for a not really all that much superior tire?
At $200 per set less than the competition I could mount a new set of Azenis and still have enough $ for a spare set of winter tires left over to buy. And with performance that close I almost gurantee 99% of the "butt" on this board or anywhere couldnt even tell the difference
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Re: (JeremyL)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JeremyL »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
For being so close in performance why does Michelin and BF GoorRich charge so much more for a not really all that much superior tire?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
The baby in the tire commercial cost $15 billion to make... they just trying to recoup costs.
For being so close in performance why does Michelin and BF GoorRich charge so much more for a not really all that much superior tire?
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The baby in the tire commercial cost $15 billion to make... they just trying to recoup costs.