An Autopower with an integrated harness bar is the end mounting point for your shoulder belts. This puts them at a proper angle, as described above. Here's an example from my car:




Hope that helps,

Jon

 

Now this just isn't fair -- the Schroth Rally 4 harness may be a Bad Idea (TM). I certainly wont argue that one way or another, but Schroth makes a fully SFI approved 6 point harness with advanced anti-submarine features and special compatablility for HANS devices. I know several guys that have replaced their Simpson/Sparco/whatevers with Schroth's new harness this year because it works better with their HANS. I think they've been running ads for it in SportsCar for it if you would like to see what it looks like.

Joel


[Modified by JoelG, 4:19 AM 3/8/2003]

 

Hmmmm, Schroth = unsafe garbage? How do you figure? That company makes nothing but harness belts, its their only business. They make them for cars, planes, helicopters, rollercoasters, etc. I'd think they would know more about them than anybody here on Honda-Tech? No? Its up to the driver to know how to use them properly, and every belt comes with detailed information on how the belts should be used. Since Schroth does testing on the belts, I'd think their recommendations would outweigh anybody spouting opinions on a messageboard. Now, if you've done extensive testing on these belts and can prove their instructions wrong, then I stand corrected.

My .02.

 

reverse negative... just an accident?

 

A bit late but I finally found the front-end pic:




*Amazing* that the driver & instructor were ok.

A lesson for us all-

Jon

 

getfast.
thanks for the picture. It sure helped, but I am still wondering if I can use my Sparco 4 point harness once I get my roll bar or do I need to buy a new harness that will mount to the harness bar?

 

what type of harness do you have? IF its a 'street' harness that looks like this:



Or this:



Then you will need a new one that is 3", SFI approved and has either a latch-link or camlock that looks like this:







And mount them with these with backing plates





(i.e. not to the rear seat belt mounts)

 

getfast,
could you take a picture of the rear mounting points for your roll bar? does it mount to the front of the rear tower? would I have to remove my Spoon rear tower bar?
Someone already answered this on another thread, but I just want to be 100% sure. Thanks!

.RJ,
the harness I have is the firts one. So why do they even offer those harnesses?

 

Most bolt-ins mount there. Custom is another story.

Probably not, but i'd sell it and use the funds toward the rollbar.

I wish i knew. But i dont. I'm guessing its a street tuning/show thing, even though they're entirely unsafe for street or track conditions. I suppose they are ok for autocross.

 

Woah, easy killer. My bad. I meant to say that I think any 4-point belts like the Schroth Rally, or any other bastard non-SFI non stock belt is a bad idea. I was not aware that Schroth made proper 5 and 6 point belts.

To restate, Schroth = probably makes perfectly fine belts, I don't have any idea. 4-points on track = bad idea. And yes, I know why, but no, I haven't done any "testing", and I don't plan to.

So, the poster I replied to said that "The Manufacturer" (Schroth) said that it is acceptable to mount belts to the rear lap belt bolts. That is in direct violation of the SFI regulations as-is due to the angle. So -- WTF? I still distrust Schroth!

Maybe we're all talking apples and oranges, but here's my final take: The ONLY 2 types of belts I recommend for a street or track car are (1) stock factory belts or (2) SFI rated 5 or 6 point harnesses with rollover protection. I will stand by my original comment that everything else which does not fit in these categories is garbage, IMO. I perform tech inspections for our HPDEs and Time Trials, and I will fail anything else that comes along.

Mike

 

Unfortunately there are instructors and porsche/bmw drivers that think these schroth harnesses and harness bars are a wonderful idea (at NASA-Va events at least)

 

They're fine until you roll it.

Anyone know why the Schroth belts are a factory option on Euro-spec BMWs? Of course the easy way out is to say "because they can make money that way," but I'm curious if they offer any safety-related argument for offering the belts.

I've used the Schroth Rallye-series belts at autocrosses in other cars and found that they will ride up into the ribcage if not adjusted perfectly. Even then they will tend to ride up if you didn't *really* get them tight and in the correct order.

I understand that the angle of the rear strap is critical to avoiding spinal injuries. Some folks have mounted the tail strap to the rear shoulder belt anchor on the C pillar. Anyone have experience with this style of mounting? Want to comment?

Of course the one thing we seem to be missing from all these "discussions" about harnesses (read: newbies asking and RJ telling them why it's bad) is actual crash experience. Has anyone crashed with one of the various 4-point belts? What happened? How did the belts work? Can you compare that experience with a crash with regular stock belts?

-Adam (who isn't trying to be a smart-***, but seems to hear this same conversation repeatedly...)

 

Any part on your car is fine until you do something stupid with it

I wish i knew. Maybe they are implemented in a different fashion than the OTS 4-points are usually mounted on cars here for autocross. Maybe the belts arent the same. I would think that BMW doenst just throw some OTS belts in the car and call it a factory option. This argument may be irrelevant.

Trying to mount a non-stock belt in a stock location will have this effect. I had this problem when i used a sparco harness for autocross, so i just ditched it.

I've seen this too. I dont think its any better or worse than the rear seat belt mounts.

Hopefully we wont have to make this comparison. I imagine alot of the rollover incidents do not involved a car barrel-rolling at 100mph and do not cause roof collapses, at least in HPDE's. If you look at the roof of the crashed BMW, ask yourself if you'd want to be strapped upright by a belt. Or if you were wearing the harnesses that ride up on your ribcage while autocrossing - would you want to hit something head on at 60 mph wearing them? I sure wouldnt....

When i had my incident at summit last year, my belts worked completely as intended and i had no ill-effects afterwards. This was not a high speed crash, but i will be installing a roll bar in the integra very soon for this reason.

 

whoops......wrong "s" company........thanks for the correction

 

No prob... I only remembered because a) Sparco and Sabelt are both Italian, while Schroth is German IIRC; and b) because a Ferrari racecar I was recently drooling on wore harnesses with both Sparco and Sabelt logos stitched into its harnesses, so there must be a correlation.

Jon
ps- Sabelt also made a bunch of camlock harnesses for USA's own Racer Wholesale

 

It is a standard Autopower bolt-in so yes indeed (for this particular Nissan application at least) it bolts to the front of the rear strut towers. Most (if not all) of the similar Autopower products I've seen do just that. Not custom by any means, but they serve their purpose well enough IMHO... better than no rollover protection if nothing more

Hope that helps-

Jon

 

i wonder why my sparco belts don't say anything about being made by Sabelt

for the person wondering if they can still use their sparco belts when they put in the cage......this is the best thing about sparco belts if you ask me (assuming other companies don't have the same offer); with sparco, you can just order a lap belt, just a shoulder belt, just a sub belt, etc....... so, if you want to use your rollbar to attach your harness to, then you can just buy the shoulder belts for $40 or whatever it is instead of $200+ for a whole new set.

 

You can do the same with Sabelt's SFI-rated belts (their equivalent to the Sparco SFI-rated stuff.) Always good to have options.
-Adam

 

Again, it depends what the belt is to be used for. I don't think anybody here is recommending the 4 point belts for track days or wheel to wheel racing, so the SFI regulations don't really matter. For autocross, mounting them there, IMHO, is fine.

Agreed. I don't recommend the Rallye series belts for HPDEs and Time Trials (but for autocross they are fine). In fact, without a rollbar/cage and 5-6 point capable seat, a driver should not be using harnesses at all, and should stick with their factory belts. I see all kinds of people running a rollbar, and then think they can use a 5 point harness with their factory seats. This is a no-no as well. In order to work properly, 5-6 Point belts need the sub strap hole in the base of the seat.

 

No! No! No!!!!!

He said he has a harness that looks like this:



The belt width is too small, is not SFI approved, and the latching mechanism is something that looks like it came with a toy for a 3 year old.

You cannot use any part of that harness on track. Well, you should not at least.

 

another woops on my part........i shouldn't have made the ASSumption that he had the 3'' camlocks.

 

These belts are pretty bad for anything...every company makes a set too Momo, sparco ,schroth...I think OMP too.
When you pull down on the shoulder straps the lap belts will ride up onto your stomach where you don't want the belt to be...at least that was my experience with them.

 

This is a great discussion. I was considering a Schroth Rallye 4 belt, (which has tail straps that are mounted to the rear seat bolt location.) I think a Rallye 3 would be a better choice as the rear tail strap is mounted to the C-pillar, and thus parallel to the ground.
I have a 98 Prelude and at first I thought the Rallye 4 would be the only application, but if I remove the panel on the c-pillar I can have access to the c-pillar bolt.
I do auto-xing and Solo trails, thanks for all the information you all have given about the dangers in using a harness on the track. Needless to say I will use my factory belt on the track until I get a roll cage, and the harness only on the auto-x course.

 

Another trick you can do is buy a lapbelt from a camlock harness (just the lapbelt) and mount it just behind the seat on the floor - it will hold you in place better than one of the schroth belts will, when used along with your OE belt.

 

Not if they are installed and tightened correctly. You tighten the lap belts first, once they are snug and in place, you adjust the shoulder belts enough so that they are snug. Overtightening the shoulder belts can pull the lap belts up, but if that happens, you are overtightening the shoulder belts.


[Modified by Brett@SoloRacer.com, 10:06 AM 3/9/2003]