I know that HPDE events usually require the driver and passenger to have the same safety equipment (harnesses, etc), but what about seats? For cars that have just 1 race seat installed for the driver, will an instructor not ride along if he also doesnt have a racing seat? I vaguely remember reading or hear about a school requiring a race seat for the passenger if the driver also had one.

Thanks.

 

I just did my first HPDE for ChinMotorsports, and I had the stock Civic seat for the passenger, and a Type R seat with stock seatbelts for me. Neither of us had harnesses. The instructor still rode with me, and never mentioned it once.





[Modified by 96 SOHC VTEC, 3:52 PM 12/31/2002]

 

It depends on the particular instructor for most things.

I wouldn't personally refuse to ride if you had a seat and I didn't, but I'd have a problem if you had a harness and I didn't. I'd ask that you wear the stock belts too (which might or might not be possible with a race seat, if they are even still installed). I make Miata students pad at least my side of the rollbar. I flat won't ride in a S2000, Boxter, etc that doesn't have a "real" rollbar (no, the factory ones don't count by my standards).

Does that help any?

 

I would also like to know.

I plan on getting a roll bar, race seat, and a pair of 5pt harnesses, but may keep my passenger seat stock.

 

Yep, that helps. I know the harness thing is pretty standard, but was more curious about seating. I thought I read about a school that required front and passenger seats to be the same if a rollbar was installed in the car. Just curious.

 

It would be nice to have a race seat for the instructor, but I wouldn't refuse to get in if I didn't have one. I'm not driving, so I can brace myself in turns if needed.

 

Some organizations will require the seats to be the same (think of clubs for cars made in ****-retentive countries).

Other more laid-back organizations will leave it up to the instructor. Personally, I'm ok with a stock seat as long as the harness works with it. I've been in some cars where the 5 or 6pt harness installation with the stock seat was a big mess -- sub strap in wrong place, shoulder straps falling off the seat back etc. That's not OK with me. Stock belt is OK as long as the driver uses the stock belt, regardless of what kind of seats are installed. Having the same equipment on both sides does show the instructor that you care about his/her safety and probably helps them have a positive attitude toward you.

As long as I'm typing using a race seat w/o a roll bar isn't a great idea. Using a race seat and a 5/6pt harness w/o a roll bar is a really bad idea & I wont do it. No roll bar, we use stock belts, or I stay in the paddock. This could mean as little as having to juggle instructor assignments or as much as you having to take a refund and go home, if none of the other instructors are willing to go out w/ a setup like that. I realize thats not what you are suggesting, I'm just pointing it out in case anyone out there was thinking of doing that. I have pix of a M3 smashed real flat on my web page if anyone needs convincing.

Like Diane, I wont ride in a S2000, boxter or Z3 unless it has a real roll bar in it.

I have a question for the group -- how much padding on the roll cage is enough? The CCR really doesn't give much guidance

joel

update: clairified (I hope)


[Modified by JoelG, 9:27 AM 12/31/2002]

 

How exactly do you refuse to ride in a car and what happens afterwards? I assume you would politely tell the student why you wont ride with them. Then what happens? Do you go to the instructor liason and tell him to get that student a new instructor and reassign you to another student?

Also along the same lines, what would you do if you get a student who is extremely unsafe on track, and will not listen to you at all?

 

I can't tell you what the GCR says, but I can tell you my theory (for what it's worth)...

If my head, arms, or legs could contact it, then it's padded. In a car with a stock seat, that includes where my head/arms/legs could end up if that seat breaks. I have a friend who didn't think of that possibility and doesn't remember about 3 hours of his life after backing into armco, having his seat break, and hitting hit head on "that part of the roll bar that can't be hit".

 

That's an easy one... park them. Period.

If they don't/won't listen to me, it's their time stuck in the pits. No skin off my nose.

 

Out of curiosity, why would you not want to use the stock belts if the driver was using a harness?

 

In both cases, you go to the chief instructor and say, "I want out of this car for <fill in the blank> reason.

In the case of the unsafe driver, that problem quite often takes care of itself through the corner workers, the pit marshall, and the rest of the event staff.

 

That's exactly what I would do at a NASA event. At FATT I just pretend the cars that aren't safe don't exist, since we don't have assigned students. CarGuys tech rules are strict enough that I can't see it happening.

Twice I've had to bring students into the pit for a long discussion while their session is going on. Once they realize that their track time is wasting away their listening skills improve I've never had that not work. If it didn't my next step would be to get the event director involved.

I think that some instructors may be a little reluctant to pull students into the pit for a discussion. DONT BE! Its your safety and others at stake. If you have a bad feeling about something, act on it. Don't wait. I've had friends take rides into walls because they didn't listen to their intuition.

joel

 

I'm concerned that it might encourage the student to take risks that aren't acceptable to me.

or to put it another way, I don't drive 10/10ths with students in my car.

joel

 

I'm curious... is the harness rule just a courtesy unwritten rule, or a policy. I'm sure it depends on the organization.

NASA?
Carguys?
THSCC?
CHIN - apparently doesn't care.

Like I've said before... I bought two seats out of courtesy... and to prevent any hard feelings (spoken or not) on an instructor's part when they get in my car. I understand it's a money issue for some. I'd still rather buy two Corbeau Forza's than one Sparco Evo.

 

What if you get a pair of buckets but the instructor is too large for your seat?

 

I have EVO2's on the assumption that most everyone can fit in them. I wouldn't do something like install a Spoon or Mugen seat on the right side. That would definitely limit your instructor options.

 

When you put your self on a track to learn how to drive your car, it's good that you have safety equipment - like roll bars, driving seats, harnesses, etc. If your car is basically a street car and you have gone as far as doing all that stuff to the left side (where YOU sit), it is ALWAYS a thoughtfull thing to do the same to the right side.

Message given is: I want to learn how to drive. I want to be safe. I want my instructor, who basically has little control over the car and my manuevers, to feel safe. This way he/she can spend the time on teaching me and focusing on me, rather than worrying about what happens to him/her in case of an emergency.

I thought it would be really good to have a harness in my car (I don't have an instructor), without a roll cage. Then I saw a street car flip on the front straight at Summit. The driver's head was sticking out the window and his body was laying across the console, and the car was pretty pancaked.

Then I realized where his head would have been if he had had a harness and no roll cage. Not on his body.

So, I decided that my street car would remain a street car without a harness and I just wouldn't drive as fast as if I had other equipment in it. Of course, I realize that age has played a major part in this decision. When I was younger and invincible, I drove my 69 vette 10/10ths all the time and set a few lap records in it.
It was my street car with no saftey stuff.

Then I drove a race car. Then I got safe.

The morale here is what are you saying about yourself if your side of the car is prepared and the instructor's side isn't. I don't think it is " all the accidents we may have will definitely be on my side".

Have a safe and Happy New Year ---- Watch out for anyone trying to test out their new saftey equipment.

Elyse

 

I personally saw one case where a student had a full cage in a car but hadn't yet installed race seats or harnesses. The car passed tech, as there was no stipulation that you HAD to have seats and harnesses with a cage, but the instructor didn't like the setup. So the instructor put a 75mph speed limit on the student for the first two sessions to check him out, then got out of the car and did lead/follow exercises for the rest of the weekend.

Generally speaking, however, think about how you would feel if it was YOUR butt in the right seat with a stock seat and stock belts and looking over and seeing the driver with race seat and harnesses.

-Matt

 

My recollection is that Car Guys requires equal restraint - never heard anything about equal seating. I know THSCC requires equal restraint as well.

To be fair though...I've taken countless students for ridealongs with me sitting in my Kirkey and them sitting in the stock bucket. They had a 5 point camlock just like mine, but it was certainly less than ideal. Something for my fellow instructors with non-race cars to ponder.

 

Shultz,

You make a good point. However, I have to admit that riding with someone like yourself is a bit different than an instructor riding with a student. One can always say "no thanks, Rice" However, a student MUST have an instructor (until he or she solos, etc. etc.)

Besides, when I ride with you I'm in a stock GSR seat, which is pretty nice, and I look over at that Kirkey and start to feel sorry for you.

-Matt