Today I instructed for the first time at speed. I've done a lot of Solo-II instructing and actually really enjoy it. NW Alfa Romeo Club held a HPDE at Bremerton Motorsports Park and it rained on us all day (even hailed at one point). The students were all basically at the pure novice stage. I felt a little out-of-place as a instructor but was assured by the event director I'd be fine.

First guy I get has a NSX and has taken one school a month or so ago. He's incredibly jerky with the wheel and throttle, so we work on that for a few laps. He's not getting it completely, but we're fast down the straight. On about the
5th lap, he gets on the gas too hard coming out of the hairpin (leading onto the main straight), and we get into a huge tank-slapper. He tries to recover and I thought we had it for a moment, but the car gets away from him and I yell "BRAKES". The car loops around and we slide backwards off the track at about 50mph into the bushes on the right. No damage, so we continue.

He takes it easy for a lap while I discuss what happened and why it happened. He agreed with everything I said and seemed to understand why he spun. Next lap we're flying down the straight and he's late on the brakes for T-1. His hands move as if he's gonna try the turn anyway, so I point straight to the run-off area with both hands and say "GO STRAIGHT". He did what I said and we sat deep in the run-off and a minute. We get back on track and I tell him to take us in because I knew the director would want to have a chat with us. We come in and I have another instructor go out with him.

Next car I get is a old Alfa (something). This guy's car is so incredibly loose it's almost undriveable. He's constantly loosing the rear and having to make big counter moves to correct. I explained that we need to try "feathering" the throttle and apex certain corners later, but he's just not getting it. The car had really soft suspension and I was starting to feel a bit queezy - but we stay out for a few more laps to work on our line. I finally told him to come in (I really needed to be on solid ground). Another idle insutuctor jumped in with him while I went to the porta-can. I didn't get sick, but I felt pretty bad. After a few minutes, this group is finished, and the next group is coming.

After a briefing (and still feeling queezy), I jump in a BMW M-Coupe and we head out. This guy is better, but still needed to work on steering inputs. A few laps in, he overcooks T-1, and we blast through the grass and mud. I tell him to keep going so we don't get stuck, and we have a brief chat about the brake pedal. After a few more laps, We come in to switch instructors and I jump in a modified turbo GTI. Fast car in a straight line, but he's lifting mid-corner and pushing the clutch pedal in. We work on that and he improves. By this time, I need to get out of the car again and stand on solid ground. Similar stories for the third group.

After lunch, I talk with the director and say I didn't feel comfortable continuing. He understands and said that was fine. He said when I feel better to get in my car for a session in the afternoon. I wait a few sessions and finally (with coaxing from Nash) get in my car for a few laps. It was fun and it gave me the opportunity to bed in the new pads. Feeling sorta like I let the club down, I pack up and say my good-by's early.

So my question is; how in the hell do those of you who instruct keep doing it? How do you keep from getting motion sick, and how can you put yourself in the position of not being in control? The students seem to start out ok, but on about the 4th or 5th lap, they get brain fade for some reason. I think I'm a pretty effective communicator and for the most part I know what I'm talking about, but this experience has put a bad taste in my mouth. It's bad enough I risk my life in my own car on track.

John -- who might be over reacting, but 5 hours later I still feel woozie.

 

I am a chronically car sick person - always have been - but somehow managed to get it under control for almost 10 years codriving a rally car. I determined that it wasn't the left-right or fore-aft accelerations that got me. It was my brain feeling negative Gs (or what it thought were negative Gs) when I was looking down and the driver got on the brakes. I have done some nonscientific tests on airplanes (get sick there, too) - when they get the 'up and downs,' I lean my head way back so the accelerations seem to my inner ear like regular braking and accelerating. I don't know what it means but that's what I have learned.

I can also tell you that those pressure point wrist things are junk, the scop patches put me to sleep, dramamine makes me as sick as being on the SS Minnow would have, large doses of ginger help some but make the driver ill when I fart - peppermint is better that way.

Regarding not being in control? You need to crash a couple of race trailers to get that out of your system.

Have fun!

Kirk

PS - I wasn't there and I know the weather was lousy but it sounds a little like the Alfa club needs to keep their folks on a shorter leash.

 

It starts with the classroom instructor getting them in the proper mind-set. If you had no classroom instructor, I think we've found a large part of the problem.

the Captain (Aka Ron) is a GREAT classroom instructor and always gets the novices in the right frame of mind. I know when he's in class, it takes a big burden off my shoulders.

 

My first time instructing was a little rough. I pretty much went out with no instruction on instructing, just my competition experience. It was an eye opening experience for sure - the feeling of helplessness when something goes wrong is scary and always will be to some extent.

Now that I've done it a few times, I'm a lot more comfortable in the passenger seat. The biggest thing that helped put me at ease was the NASA Instructor Clinic (led by Dan Unkefer, who is the head instructor for several mid-Atlantic clubs). It wasn't so much a matter of teaching me anything I didn't already know, just reaffirmed what I thought I knew and got me in the right mindset for the job.

A few things I've learned:
1. Keep VERY tight reins on rookies. Especially advanced rookies who haven't had their first "Oh ****!" moment. The first few times I went out, I didn't realize how much control the instructor needs to take with new drivers. I had several unfortunate spins (no damage except to egos), but quite likely scared a friend away from HPDEs due to my own inexperience as an instructor.

2. Rain is your friend. But only if it pours. I had a great day at VIR in the pouring rain. My novice student was returning to HPDE after a few years off and the slow speed, low traction conditions let him shake off the cobwebs without scaring us. My intermediate student learned a ton and went on to have an excellend Sunday in the dry.

3. For the most part, students do listen (even if they don't always execute).

4. You can't do it for free track time. You've got to want to do it.

5. Use the time to learn something yourself. You'd be amazed at what you notice on track when you have to think about it.

6. Prepare yourself. The better prepared you are, the better the weekend will go. Know how to describe basic terms for novices. Know how to describe the nuances of the track for more experience drivers. This goes hand-in-hand with #5 - you learn a lot about driving when you have to know it well enough to teach it.

 

I'm confused -- what was the format of the school? By your description it sounds like instructors were jumping into student cars *****-nilly. And you made no mention of initial goal setting and the "this is what we are GOING to do" discussion. Those usually focus on smoothness of inputs, braking in a straight line, and throttle in the corners when I'm with novice students. I also couldn't tell if you were using a communicator. It lets you get right into a student's head. For the first few sessions, especially with a rank novice, I drive the damn car from the right seat. Tell them what to do exactly where.

IMO, the combination of (1) a good classroom instructor, (2) a pre-ride "discussion", (3) communicator, (4) constant input, and (5) taking the student for a ride usually has helped me keep students under control. It doesn't help if the club is asking you to jump from car to car with no time to prep or debrief a student, or if you don't get to spend the whole weekend with your student. I guess I have less advice for you as I do to the organizers of the event!

Hope this helps Keep on trying -- seeing a student "get it" is a very rewarding experience, and one I am sure you will enjoy!

 

I can give you a good perspective on being a n00b trackschool student.. as I have only done 2 schools, one a summer for two years.

last year I took my car sideways into the dirt after coming up to the top of the hill at LimeRock and seeing the Golf in front of me drifting as he descended towards the main straight/last turn. I let off the throttle and tapped the brakes, right as the car was unweighting too, great pure n00b error. All I remember as input from the instructor was his grabbing the Oh **** handle and yelling "BOTH FEET IN, DONT TURN!" while we drifted sideways across 50 feet or more of grassy infield. No damage to the car but plenty of grass and dirt in my mouth and car, oh well, glad that was all. My instructor took me in and we chatted about the whole thing, turns out there was a coolant leak with another car and the Golf an dI were the unlucky two to find the spillage on the track.

So, that experience cemented the fact in my head, that you need to leave your "street techniques" of defensive driving (avoiding that new, pricey, Golf in front of me) at home and use a different set of techniques on track. There were times after a few laps that I was right back where I started, because the newly discussed driving techniques had not been talked about for 4 laps, so that really let them fade away, strange but true, even you saw that happen to your students? (makes me feel better ) Sounds like you had a rough day but remember to talk to students off track too, they will have more questions and maybe even suggestions for how to change or modify communication too.

I could have used constant comunincation fromt he instructor, like this is good, that was bad try this, I mean CONSTANT verbal exchanges. Also I commend you on becoming an instructor, its people like YOU that let people like me have the best time of an entire year !


[Modified by owen_the_soyboy, 12:46 AM 3/16/2003]

 

I think that with a novice student, very little communication from the instructor allows brain fade to set in, and then, all downhill from there....

A friend of mine is a SRX7 racer and BSR instructor - its interesting when i always hear his stories about "that guy" he instructed last week at the FATT

 

Not willi-nilly, although it may've sounded that way. There were more students than instructors for two of the groups, so we had to flip-flop a few times. No way around it. Three "stations" were set up. One was a long handling oval, one was the ground school, and the other was the road course. The driver's meeting covered the basics and control/smoothness was stressed (and stressed again before our groups got started). Those with zero on-track experience sat through a extra ground school before joining a station.

 

"I could have used constant comunincation fromt he instructor, like this is good, that was bad try this, I mean CONSTANT verbal exchanges."

As a n00b myself, I couldn't agree with this more. I know I get just mentally exhausted being on track, it's kind of overload and w/out constant communication with my instructor keeping me focused it can get ugly...messing up once gets ya flustered and then it just gets worse and worse. Heh even doing well can mess me up, last time I hit a corner perfectly that I had trouble with all day and was soo happy about it I totally blew the next turn...just lost my focus.

A quick chat before and/or after each session is a big help as well. Getting feedback on what was done well and what needs to be worked on while not at speed makes it a lot easier to make progress on track.

Big thanks to all the instructors out there! I dono how you guys do it, but I'm glad you do


[Modified by DSC240sx, 7:42 AM 3/16/2003]

 

Great topic John...

Today was a "love it-hate it" day for me. I was an instructor for TC today at Portaland. My real motivation was to get in some free test laps at lunch. Unfortunately, my car isn't ready for the track and I headed down this morning (sans teg) hoping the club already had enough guys to instruct.

Well, I ended up being assigned to an intermediate guy in a Z06. WTF? I'm a low HP newbie in a 400hp Corvette? With the possibility of rain!?

Anyway, this guy had some experience at PIR and so I agreed to the ride...

First out in Grp 3 was damp and slick - no passing and a 70 mph limit. My student had jerky inputs and scared the holy *F* out of me on the back straight by slamming the throttle to hard and to early (for those not in the know - PIR's back straight is not straight!)

Long story short - By the third season, and after a couple of good stern "Here's what I'd do different" conversations, (and, thank God, dry sessions) I had him driving smooth and fast. The pucker factor for me went from a 9.0 to a 5...

The major factor for me was the communication of expectations. Without that, and his ability to follow instruction, I would have had a misserable day...

Greg ~ who has some MAJOR respect for the FR hi-HP drivers.


LATE night spelling edit//

[Modified by bulldog_RS20, 11:19 AM 3/16/2003]


[Modified by bulldog_RS20, 11:21 AM 3/16/2003]

 

Instructing can be a real mixed bag based on the students you draw. Probably my most rewarding was a girl who barely knew how to drive a stick on Saturday morning and was doing great by the next day. I instructed at the track day for the national Saab club last summer and my most difficult student was a guy who had been to the annual track day from the few previous years but no experience in between. Since he already knew everything, getting him to settle down and listen took two days but finally began sinking in.

I have the cheap brand motorcycle communicators but like it better than yelling and hand gestures. I haven't been in any really big high speed spinning through the grass situations (lots of drive offs though) but I try to keep a solid rein on the student's speed. I always enforce "balance and finesse are the goal, speed is the reward".

I guess I am lucky but I have never head to deal with any motion sickness issues. My biggest issue is being a very big guy wearing a helmet and any number of large or small cars and finding sufficient hand holds for bracing myself so I don't flop around in the stock seat belts. Putting some twists in the buckle can help but the standard reel type unit with a slider buckle offers damn little real support for cornering Gs when you have no steering wheel to brace with. I often have to use my right hand on door handle grips and the left behind the driver's seat on the back seat, floor tunnel, etc. At the end of the day, my arm muscles are tired from short but intense gripping and bracing.

 

some racers just don't make good instructors...like me...I've never gotten motion sickness while driving, or as a passenger with a racer I know...but put me w/ a rookie or someone I don't know and I'm heading for the porta-pottie too!! They say the smartest people are those who know thier limitations...I don't instruct anymore

 

Very true. The best Solo-II students I've ever had were brand new. Nash's wife started driving last year in Street Mod L. I was her first formal instructor and it was a blast. She made massive improvements, and this year she's running with the boyz (and doing just fine).

 

best instructor I ever had was Corey(sorry those of you here who have instructed me)

he knows me and my driving like the back of his hand, hell, he and I started driving to gether
he knows what I can do and knows that he can yell at me, which he does, at VIR he had me running 10/10ths with this energy that just started flowing out of him, it was funny to me because he would beat on the dashboard yelling things at me and then sart cheering when we would be fulll throttle through the uphill esses or come out of Oak Tree in a big 4 wheel drift and drop 2 off at the exit
then at Lowes he just called me a ***** when I didn't hold it to the floor in NASCAR 3 and 4 and that made me do it next time

the point is that he was comfortable with me as I was with him, I couldn't fake anything with him and he knew my experience level, he also knows what my car can do

I am a firm believer in that instructors should take the time to meet a student before the first session, talk to him, look at the car and talk about it
If you show an interest in the student and his/her car then they are 10 times more likely to listen to you on track

 

Before every weekend i'd seek out my instructor and sit down with them for 10-15 minutes so that they knew my experience level and what my goals for the weekend were. They're going to be your best friend all weekend and you're going to spend quite a bit of time together - and you can make alot of progress if you use your time wisely - so you better get to know them saturday morning.

 

More from a noob... Two weeks ago I attended a Novice autox school and at the end of the day I probably learned 10x what I would have had I been alone w/o an instructor in the car. The most important thing to me, as others have mentioned, is constant communication, whether everything is going ok or not, there are always ways I can improve, no matter how 'smooth' I think I'm getting.

And I'm not sure if this was an option at your track school but I also learned a TON when my instructor drove my car, I was being way too conservative and not confident of what my car or I could do... but obviously some of your students were not so conservative and thought they were Superman at the wheel.

When I rode and my instructor drove, it scared the **** out of me! It seems a million times faster when you're not in control of the car. I don't think I'd ever want to try to instruct anyone if/when I get to that level.

But anyway, after that school and doing the am/pm session at the autox the next day I ended up being within 3-4 seconds of the SM (my class) guys which has been my goal so far.

 

It's been mentioned, but the most important thing is talking your student through the first few laps. Then start shutting up only when they get it. I'm very vocal as an instructor. I don't have an intercom yet (def getting one now) so I tend to lose my voice by the end of the day.

If you have a complete novice who has never been on track, it really helps to drive their car for a few laps and let them see the track from the passenger seat. But drive it really slowly, like 6/10ths. Drive the line and be really smooth. Tell the student to watch the line you are driving and the inputs you are making with the wheel and pedeals. Then switch seats and they will have a much better idea of what they need to do.

I'm most scared of intermediate students. They think they know what they're doing and they push way too hard before they are really ready. I'm always really strict with them for a few laps until I'm confortable riding with them.

Just remember that YOU are in control as an instructor. You have the responsibility to make sure the car gets around the track safely. Do not let the student bring the speed up until they know the line and are smooth with inputs. Some students are great and it's really fun watching them progress. Other students don't seem to want to get better and just want to throw the car around. For those students, you can't really teach them anything so your job is to keep them safe.

 

The fact that I'll ride fast on race tracks with total strangers, just to get some free track time of my own, proves how much I love this 'chit.

Actually, I've had very few students that scared me and only one student thumped tire wall in over 12 years. There are some that learn fast, some that never get beyond the basics, and some that make you just resort to survival tactics! Then there some that make you so comfortable you'll see features around the track that you never noticed before! (yes, that's you RJ the moderator).

For me, a side benefit is that my own driving improves by constantly pointing out lines and technique to others. Anyone can preach it, it is another matter all together to hit the marks every lap... maybe I'll get there some day!

 

"how do you do it?"

Its all about the love.

Scott, who has unfortunately had to pretty much give up instructing due to back problems.

 

Skye:
Glad to see you out there. Stick around, it gets a lot better.

fidracer:
I talk a lot when I'm around cars. Communication isn't typically the problem, but this being my first shot at instructing going fast in the right seat, maybe I left a few things out, or maybe I didn't take control like I should've. Either way, I'm turned off for a while.

Scott:
I gotz plenty of love, no question there. I just don't quite have the "mad trust skillz" you guys gotz.

John -- who apparently has trust issues, and has a new appreciation for HPDE instructors



[Modified by johng, 9:43 PM 3/16/2003]

 

It's a sickness I think

Seriously, it started, at least for me, as a way to give something back. I had gotten SO MUCH from experienced drivers, from my days at Bondurant, through my first autocross and my first few years of doing track events. I not only admired the skill required, I admired that these were people who WANTED to help me improve. And I wanted, and still want, to be that person.

Fortunately I don't get motion sick. I've ridden with some seriously fast, and often crazy, people. I've been tapped by other instructors to compare their lines because they know I won't tap out. So I dunno if I'm blessed or cursed by this, but it helps me keep getting in the cars.

I also err on the side of caution with a completely unknown student. Someone who I've seen drive, or have good information that they won't take me off into the tire wall, I'll push to go faster. But the guy I don't know from Adam I'll usually play it safe with, focus on line and technique and smoothness. I don't "push" the unknown guys.

Overall I've also been blessed with some seriously competent students, at all levels of experience, many of whom are on this board. I've had my share of "that guy" students too, but have been bound and determined to help them. Usually it has worked, sometimes it hasn't.

I think you should try it at least one more time John. You're articulate and thoughtful and though I've not shared the track with you, I suspect you'd make a fine instructor. But if you get motion sick consistently, hang up your communicator and maybe look to do classroom. Vomiting is not fun.

 

You guys are outta my league however...

In any position of trainer/instructor the student considers you an expert in your field. The student needs however confidence in the instructor to be taught succesfully.

Obviously the skill of the student will go hand in hand on how much can be taught to him or her. But the little instruction I have received was greatly inhanced by how much trust I put in my instructor.

So...If you can find their greatest weakness on the track that will gain them time and inspire confidence (found from that great big grin on their face) you will definently have a hook in them and they will probably throw themselves into your instructions easier.

Some people have a problem applying principle but hopefully I am talking about the majority of folks.

Sorry if this is no help, just my perspective.

 

sounds like that is most likely the case. its esp. important to REALLY TAKE CHARGE when there is no classroom or the classroom instructor isnt really strong. BTW, getting 3 Students From Hell in one day is pretty unusual. In 2+ years I've only had a handfull of SFHs. I even had one guy that started out as a SFH and turned out great after he chilled out.

I get motion sick. it NEVER happens when i'm driving, flying etc, only when i'm a passenger. the bands work for me, but i have to put them on before i start. once i'm feeling bad only dramamine works and it puts me to sleep. i actually had some stuff from australia that isnt available in the US that worked and didnt put me to sleep but its gone now to keep from getting sick i also have to remember to keep my eyes up and look where the car is going, which is good practice but sometimes i'd like to be able to watch the students eyes, feet, tach or whatever so i have to do that sparingly. vomiting sux, but vomiting in your helmet sux worse

joel


[Modified by JoelG, 11:46 AM 3/17/2003]

 

That's another key. Once the student is settled-in and can get around the track without scaring you, focus in on one task per session. For many of students, that has been the braking zone - not that there is a whole lot of time to be gained in it, but it is a very quantifiable goal ("see, you really can start braking at the 1 marker at Turn 14").

 

damit.

to the question...

I do it becasue I enjoy it. Free track time was the first draw... but after having students/friends thank me after a weekend of fun made it more than free track time.

I have riden with a few H-T members and others that I will never see again.

Scary ride = blown and intercooled Mustang... in the rain a Summit.
Most rewarding ride = ~mid 60s male in a old Celica at Jefferson (his first event).
Fastest ride = stock Z06 at Summit (damp)... traction control light on passing pit out.
Best JDM ride = with 'z0r0' at VIR_F in an ITR.

I have puked after a session... no fault but my own (dinner/beverages).
I have gotten quezzy... but I focused and started breating deep (make sure you take plenty of air in!) I get caught up in the moment almost as bad as if I was driving.

It is not for all... that is sure. But now that I have done it a 'few' times.. I don't think I could stop.


[Modified by Willard, 9:47 AM 3/17/2003]